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  #4465  
Old March 9th, 2021, 05:35 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
If Swarm Alert had some sort of range requirement, would it be a much more sellable design? Say if the insect either had to start or end moving within 3 spaces of Valtia? I definitely donít want this mini to be sitting in the start zone all game, and I liked that this power let you get aggressive with insects and set up the Red Ants well. Is it something that needs adjusting or just better off scrapping? I agree that Scatter is a very strong power and this was a concern during play testing. It ultimately wasnít as strong as the rats due to a lack of disengage and much lower defense, but I can definitely see it being unfun just due to the nature of it.
"When an insect you control with 6 clear sight spaces of Valtia is destroyed..." would go a long way. Probably needs a price drop, then, due to the opportunity cost of the order markers to position her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
Stats are good, but Wild feels off. Also, Why Range 3? That makes her unnecessarily valuable in cleanup.
As stated above in Sir Heroscapeís response, the attack range was purely to match the aura range as sheís commanding her swarm to pile in on something and sting them. I enjoy the theme it has, but this can be dropped if itís too strong or disliked. And the Wild personality is something Iíve admittedly not been sure on. Devout, Ruthless and Merciless have all been other personalities Iíve had in mind for her.[/QUOTE]
Eh. Short range in HS is really weird. Well, range is always somewhat weird, but it feels even weirder at short ranges. She could only shoot something 3 spaces away yet also be 20 levels higher. Maybe it fits with your haze concept, but normally short range is avoided due to the strangeness.
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  #4466  
Old March 9th, 2021, 06:00 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
"When an insect you control with 6 clear sight spaces of Valtia is destroyed..." would go a long way. Probably needs a price drop, then, due to the opportunity cost of the order markers to position her.
Thank you, this sounds like a great change. For the most part during my playtesting she's almost always been relatively close to the action so I don't think the points will change much. Will definitely test more before any sort of submission though to make sure.

Quote:
Eh. Short range in HS is really weird. Well, range is always somewhat weird, but it feels even weirder at short ranges. She could only shoot something 3 spaces away yet also be 20 levels higher. Maybe it fits with your haze concept, but normally short range is avoided due to the strangeness.
Again I can definitely drop the range attack if people dislike it. She doesn't really use it unless she's still alive in cleanup or gets to pick something off whilst setting up; it's mostly a flavour thing. Varja has range 3 with no hitzones and much higher attack so from a balance and general acceptance perspective I assumed it would be okay. But that's one figure and I can definitely see more people wanting to avoid it for the same reason.
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  #4467  
Old March 13th, 2021, 12:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
I love this mini as an Aquilla Kyrie and I hope that it's used. I also like the direction of this design a lot, even if the focus on just Insects is a bit narrower than I'd personally hope (although I do understand and appreciate the restraint there).

That said, there are some oddities here, as others have mentioned. I don't think that the Burrfly Haze Aura theme comes across well enough on its own. I've seen the explanation for it multiple times, but I think that the card itself would be better served with a less specific theme. Leaning on Thorian, for example, would be a fine way to communicate Valhallan magic, or you could follow Raelin and Taelord's example of the more plainly named "Defensive Aura." That also makes it easier to remember what the card does at a glance when you see it in another person's army.

If you still wanted to keep the theme as insects swarming around a figure to block line of sight, then I think that dropping the Burrfly reference would help a little bit. "Insect Haze Aura," as you mentioned, is more likely to be understood by people who don't remember Sujoah's real species, albeit it still runs into the same problems noted above.

Similarly, when I look at the 3 Range without keeping the prior explanation in mind, it feels very out of place on the card. Ranged Kyrie are few and far between, with prominent ones being the Protectors of Ullar/Atlaga/Tyrian, Calibrax, and Andask. Of those, Andask is the only one to use "magic" as justification, with his design and sculpt justifying it well. Other than the insect wings and range on the aura, there's not much implying a ranged attack here (and in general, auras and attack ranges often aren't matched together). I don't think that associating the 3 range of the aura and the figure together is going to lead many players to think that Valtia attacks with insects rather than "magic," and 3 range is already in an awkward spot thematically. It's certainly been done by figures like the Varja before (and I wouldn't mind seeing it again), but it feels misplaced on this design.

As others have noted, Wild doesn't feel as thematic as it could. Of the other personalities that you've listed, I think that most of them paint a stronger theme for the character. I wouldn't be concerned about Death Knight bonding if you wanted to go with Relentless; I doubt that they'd want to drop so many points to bond with an Insect Cheerleader. You also could introduce a personality like Obsessive, which probably aligns the most with the theme that you're going for.

I'm not entirely sold on Swarm Alert. It feels fine in theory, but most of the Kyrie cheerleaders are relatively simple units with broad applications. Perhaps the best parallel here is Empress Kiova, who has an even stricter focus on which units she can help, but she still has one main function that is easy to remember. In gameplay terms, I don't mind the combo of the Haze Aura with Swarm Alert (especially with a range limit), but in the broader picture, I think that the split focus of Valtia's powers makes her feel less like a Kyrie than the others; to me, she feels most like an Insect Cheerleader that just happens to use a Kyrie figure. That's not to say that this is an insurmountable disconnect, but I do think that it's worth mentioning that the "two Insect powers" don't necessarily jive with what most Kyrie so far have been.
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  #4468  
Old March 16th, 2021, 07:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hey ya'll.
@Leaf_It and I are closing in on a final version of a Scorpion Squad. We're pretty excited about it and feel with all the iterations we've gone through, this is looking like one of the closest. We're still testing to see if there's any other dials we might wanna turn...but it's looking like this is turning out to be where we're landing. Just looking for some more opinions before finishing up and submitting.

Thanks!

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  #4469  
Old March 17th, 2021, 10:05 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Names, powers, right-side stats all look good. Have you tested with Estivara? Seems like they might be really strong with her.

The two things I'm less sold on are Hunters and Relentless. Neither is bad, and I wouldn't downvote either, but neither feels quite right. I don't have a better suggestion for the class; "Predators" feels perfect but it's off-limits. As for Relentless, the design doesn't feel particularly sharky or otherwise relentless. It's fine thematically, but I suspect it doesn't closely match how they play. I would prefer Wild.
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  #4470  
Old March 17th, 2021, 10:46 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don’t really like the -1 defense if you roll a skull mechanic.

Also these seem basically the same as the Specters but with less defense sometimes.

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  #4471  
Old March 17th, 2021, 10:59 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I don’t really like the -1 defense if you roll a skull mechanic.

Also these seem basically the same as the Specters but with less defense sometimes.
I'll note here that if they roll 0 skulls, the defending figure doesn't have to roll defense anyways, so it's the same as just subtracting 1 defense all the time. What about:

Quote:
STINGER VENOM
When attacking, if the defending figure does not roll any excess shields, that figure rolls 1 (2?) less defense die for the remainder of the Scorpions turn.
So if they don't do any damage but the attack wasn't excessively deflected, the defending figure is poisoned for the rest of the turn letting other Scorpions have their shot at killing that figure. (I suppose there needs to be a line at the end limiting defense dice subtraction.)

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Last edited by heroscaper2010; March 17th, 2021 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Fixed grammatical/comprehension error
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  #4472  
Old March 17th, 2021, 12:03 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

It is different against counter strike, to be fair.

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  #4473  
Old March 17th, 2021, 12:58 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I don't like Stinger Venom thematically, especially given how different it is from the Wyvern's Venomous Sting. Rolling one fewer defense die if the Scorpion rolled at least one skull doesn't land terribly well, especially given that this result occurs before defense dice--which can represent much broader things than just blocking--are even rolled. Venom and poison have more often been representing things like increased damage (like the Drow or Sujoah), and though reduced defense gets there, it does it in a bit of a roundabout way that leads to some thematic oddities. The fact that it is only functionally different from a constant -1 defense against Counter Strike or other specific powers is also a bit weird.

I actually quite like the Hunters class as a parallel to the Fyorlag Spiders' Scouts and the Red Ants' Soldiers classes. Relentless also feels fitting to me, though Wild or some other alternative would probably fit just as well.

I'm a bit concerned about these guys from a theoryscaping perspective, as with Estivara's generous 6-space aura, these guys will often have 3 attack and 3 defense against many figures in the game. It's not something that I think is broken or would downvote outright, but it is a concern worth mentioning. The relatively flat nature of the sculpts also means that melee figures will only be able to attack with height advantage on a 1-hex difference, which is significant on casual maps. The other insects with 2 height generally have weaker stats to help combat this.
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  #4474  
Old March 17th, 2021, 01:54 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Names, powers, right-side stats all look good. Have you tested with Estivara? Seems like they might be really strong with her.

The two things I'm less sold on are Hunters and Relentless. Neither is bad, and I wouldn't downvote either, but neither feels quite right. I don't have a better suggestion for the class; "Predators" feels perfect but it's off-limits. As for Relentless, the design doesn't feel particularly sharky or otherwise relentless. It's fine thematically, but I suspect it doesn't closely match how they play. I would prefer Wild.
Yes. In fact all testing has been done with her because we expect she'll almost always be drafted in their strongest builds. She's definitely strong for them in previous iterations and we're still taking that into account...but so far this version hasn't been game shattering.
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  #4475  
Old March 17th, 2021, 01:54 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I donít really like the -1 defense if you roll a skull mechanic.

Also these seem basically the same as the Specters but with less defense sometimes.
I'll note here that if they roll 0 skulls, the defending figure doesn't have to roll defense anyways, so it's the same as just subtracting 1 defense all the time. What about:

Quote:
STINGER VENOM
When attacking, if the defending figure does not roll any excess shields, that figure rolls 1 (2?) less defense die for the remainder of the Scorpions turn.
So if they don't do any damage but the attack wasn't excessively deflected, the defending figure is poisoned for the rest of the turn letting other Scorpions have their shot at killing that figure. (I suppose there needs to be a line at the end limiting defense dice subtraction.)
That's a fair point actually, and not a bad suggested change. We'll have to take that into consideration.
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  #4476  
Old March 17th, 2021, 02:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Some good points are brought up that Stinger Venom is a bit silly in that it usually doesn't matter if the defender rolls defense or not in the scorpion doesn't roll any skulls. Astro's comment about it being different than other stinger effects got me thinking.

STINGER VENOM
If a High Dune Scorpion rolls skulls on all attack dice when attacking a small or medium figure, the defending figure rolls 2 less defense dice.

Interestingly (similar to other stinger powers), it makes attack auras less effective because it reduces the number of times it takes effect, which would make them easier to balance with Estivara. Also, it is more similar to Lethal Sting and Venomous Sting.
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