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  #493  
Old September 21st, 2020, 11:03 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I don't like dropping the move. It makes them slower than every other dragon or wyrmling and does very little to weaken the power of the passive, Raelin-backed version while weakening their use in more dynamic builds.

I agree a higher price is an option, I'm just wholly unconvinced by the spectacle of plugging them in to that Raelin build and watching relatively low-attack melee fail, especially when there was an extremely fortunate Gilbert 1-shot.
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  #494  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 12:03 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't see why green wyrmlings in their perfect matchup with A+ backing should be expected to lose.
Very true. I tested against Knights x4, Sir Glibert, and Alastair MacDirk because I wanted to see how an all melee army compared, so I do agree with you that my test was against their perfect matchup. I also would expect the Green Wyrmling team to win in this scenario. I know games can be one-sided victories, but even against a perfect matchup, I would prefer the game be closer. 6 Green Wyrmlings, Raelin, and 1 4th Mass squad at 360 points easily took out 500 points (I didn't even use the other 2 squads of 4th Mass.). I would prefer that a perfect match be more like 400 points needed to take out 500 points.

Honestly, a better army would have been Knights x4, Sir Glibert, Krav Maga, and Isamu. In this case, the Krav Maga could have shot down Raelin followed by the Green Wyrmlings. I will test the same Green Wyrmling army against this army and see how it compares.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't like dropping the move. It makes them slower than every other dragon or wyrmling and does very little to weaken the power of the passive, Raelin-backed version while weakening their use in more dynamic builds.

I agree a higher price is an option, I'm just wholly unconvinced by the spectacle of plugging them in to that Raelin build and watching relatively low-attack melee fail, especially when there was an extremely fortunate Gilbert 1-shot.
That is also a good point about 4 move being slower than every other dragon that I did not consider. Dropping the move is the least of my proposals too for the same reasons you mentioned. I am more inclined to say point value is what needs adjusted and/or attack needs dropped. Dropping the attack to 3 would have prevented the Gilbert one-shot.

I will also test a battle where the roles are reversed and the Green Wyrmling army is the perfect matchup for the opposing army. If the Green Wyrmling army can easily beat this army, then it's a sign the Green Wyrmling needs a price increase, but if it gets completely destroyed, then it's a sign the Green Wyrmling at a good point value while having army matchups that it is both great against and poor against.
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  #495  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 09:58 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Everyone might disagree, but I think this is the best version as it fits both thematically as "baby Charos" and fixes ALL the issues is make him/her/it Uncommon @ 3 or 4 life and no Wyrmling bonding. You can still play them bonding with other Wyrmlings but cannot have an army of just Green Wyrmlings and 4th mass, or a bunch of them with Raelin and range (Nilf/Q9/KMA/Stingers, etc). This fixes issues of them not being overpowered with 4th mass, against only melee, maps with a lot of height changes, etc.

Quote:
Green Wyrmling

Dragon
Uncommon Hero
Wyrmling
Valiant

Life: 3 or 4
Move:5
Attack: 4
Defense: 4
Points: 60 or 70?

Counterstrike or Fledgling Counter Strike

Flying

{no Wyrmling bonding}

Last edited by lefton4ya; September 22nd, 2020 at 09:58 AM. Reason: Sorry to post on both threads.
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  #496  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 10:28 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

An actual D&D green dragon wyrmling figure and the design doesn't have its iconic acid poison breath? No way.

Last edited by Scytale; September 22nd, 2020 at 10:45 AM.
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  #497  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 10:33 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Poison gas, not acid.

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  #498  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 10:43 AM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

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Poison gas, not acid.
Wow, serious egg on my face there.
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  #499  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 09:20 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIEGE View Post
That is also a good point about 4 move being slower than every other dragon that I did not consider
It's not, though. No dragon had only 3 attack until the Wymlings, why should lower Move be sacred? The Red Wyrmling got lower Move than Zelrig (Blue Wyrmling also could've been slower than an official blue dragon, too, though C3V chose to give Quahon 5 Move). Additionally, Charos was the slowest dragon, the only one with 5 Move, until Moltenclaw, who came out after the Wyrmlings. Finally, there is precedent for -1 to all the big dragon's stats in the Red Wyrmling compared to Zelrig, which would be 4 Move, Attack, and Defense here. So I'd say there are at least as many reasons for 4 Move as there are against. Also, even if the actual impact on gameplay is minimal, that makes it a good dial to turn to make a minor adjustment to power level without necessarily needing to change points.


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  #500  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 09:24 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIEGE View Post
That is also a good point about 4 move being slower than every other dragon that I did not consider
It's not, though. No dragon had only 3 attack until the Wymlings, why should lower Move be sacred? The Red Wyrmling got lower Move than Zelrig (Blue Wyrmling also could've been slower than an official blue dragon, too, though C3V chose to give Quahon 5 Move). Additionally, Charos was the slowest dragon, the only one with 5 Move, until Moltenclaw, who came out after the Wyrmlings. Finally, there is precedent for -1 to all the big dragon's stats in the Red Wyrmling compared to Zelrig, which would be 4 Move, Attack, and Defense here. So I'd say there are at least as many reasons for 4 Move as there are against. Also, even if the actual impact on gameplay is minimal, that makes it a good dial to turn to make a minor adjustment to power level without necessarily needing to change points.
Fair points all, but my stronger motivation is the other part of that argument - namely, that a lower move makes them lean into their most degenerate playstyle, while discouraging using them dynamically.
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  #501  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 09:29 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Fair points all, but my stronger motivation is the other part of that argument - namely, that a lower move makes them lean into their most degenerate playstyle, while discouraging using them dynamically.
I would agree that's much more compelling. Not having played them, I couldn't say for sure, but in theory at least I don't hate 4 Move. At any rate, lowering one stat or the other (or multiple) doesn't phase me too much when the White Wyrmling has 3 Attack to Nilfheim's 6...


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  #502  
Old September 24th, 2020, 07:40 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

@Chris Perkins and I played a game today. It was actually the same matchup as Siege's on superfrog's Hush. Chris won with 2 squads of Knights and 1-life Gilbert left.

The GWs never had height but were always Raelin backed until the end. Chris led with Alastair to get rid of a couple GWs early before moving in the Knights and Gilbert. There were 10 attacks on GWs, 5 of which led to a CS (all when Raelin-backed). Those 5 CS led to 3 Knights dead and a wound on Gilbert.

Not sure why the big discrepancy between our game and Siege's. Obviously the one shot is unfortunate on Gilbert, but our stats ended at:

Quote:
Chris
Attack rolls: 68 out of 141 (48.22%)
Defense rolls: 36 out of 97 (37.11%)
Total dice rolled: 238

heroscaper2010
Attack rolls: 42 out of 85 (49.41%)
Defense rolls: 51 out of 163 (31.29%)
Total dice rolled: 248
This was a quick writeup. I'll add that my positioning could have been slightly better but overall I think I did a good job tying up the Knights/Heroes with the GWs. Alastair leading with a normal attack of 5 is deadly even against 6 defense.

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Tournament Record: 28-28: .500!

Last edited by heroscaper2010; September 24th, 2020 at 07:59 PM.
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  #503  
Old September 24th, 2020, 10:02 PM
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SIEGE SIEGE is offline
 
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I finished another playtest. This time swapping Alastair for the Krav Maga Agents and Isamu.

Spoiler Alert!


Very, very different results from my first game. The dice were definitely against the Green Wyrmling team this game, but they were definitely for the Green Wyrmling team in my last game. I want to see how this team performs against their worst possible matchup and some other armies before making any more judgements on the Green Wyrmling, but I will point out this - throwing in @Chris Perkins and @heroscaper2010 ís game, we now have a game where the Green Wyrmling team won by a huge lead, a game where the Green Wyrmling team lost by a huge lead, and a game where it was practically a tie (and they were all against the same or nearly the same army), so I think that is a good sign.
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  #504  
Old September 26th, 2020, 12:56 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Here are a couple pictures of the Bronze Wyrmling (mini considered for the GW) compared to the other wyrmlings and Charos:


Size-wise, they are slightly smaller than the other wyrmlings but nothing concerning.


Against Charos, they look perfect with the bronze color actually matching Charos' brown to an extent.

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