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  #61  
Old November 15th, 2019, 05:32 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

We'll probably have a tournament at C3G Con in June, but that's exclusively customs.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


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  #62  
Old November 15th, 2019, 06:06 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

I have ran at Origins before (the 2nd biggest USA game con after Gencon) and besides when I ran in 2011, never got more than 6 people at an event - local tournaments is where its at outside of Gencon! Again it up to TD and I think in Dayton we will allow 1/2 the time (up to @outforblood ) but in Louisville most of the time except Gencon practice.
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  #63  
Old November 15th, 2019, 06:08 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

I'm kind of surprised nobody's done a C3V/SoV-focused tourney yet, as opposed to just an inclusive one (though I guess I'm not sure if there's a terribly functional difference). Perhaps C3V/SoV members aren't particularly geographically clustered, though?

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  #64  
Old November 15th, 2019, 06:34 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Most tournaments nationally are C3V/SoV-focused, insofar as they *allow* them. In my experience conducting such events and reading about them here, those units always show up in some numbers. I haven't discovered a format yet that really "focuses" on them, though, to the exclusion of traditional units. I wouldn't want to discourage the traditional units, anyway; for many people, that's what they have.

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  #65  
Old November 15th, 2019, 06:40 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

For sure. I guess I more meant a tourney sponsored/organized by the forces that be in VC more than anything, though I suppose there's probably some overlap in those categories as is.

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  #66  
Old November 19th, 2019, 09:46 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
We've definitely gone off topic here, but I was at a live timed tournament event many moons ago, and my opponent, who I will not name, and i had played a few rounds in the finals and the board state was such that the score of the game went to time with a pair of kills my opponent would win:

Opponent
1 life Cyprien (150)
Sonya (45)
1 Stinger (60)
Total: 255

Me:
14 10th Regiment Remaining (300)

The tournament rules were that after time goes off you finish the round before going to full card scoring and he was going last with an OM 3 on Cyprien. He conjectured that he could win by sitting and waiting the 35 minutes left on the clock until the end of round then flying Cyprien in for a 3v3 attack and Chilling touch that if he hit both he would win the game, by knocking my full card scoring down to 225 to his 255.

He sat there thinking about it not moving for a good 5 minutes before I called the Tournament Director over. The tournament director, who I will not name, ruled that my opponent's strategy was valid and if he decided to sit and wait for 30 more minutes then take the final turn of the game the result would stand.

I can do little describe the anger I felt in this situation. I will say that the rest of the tournament goers got wind of the situation and enough negative vibes were sent out towards this individual's strategy that he did not go through with it, took his turn and we finished as normal.
I think the correct play here is to just refuse to roll defense dice before time expires. With the pace established by him it should take at least 15 minutes to count up how many defense dice you need to roll.

In seriousness though there are so many ways to abuse full card scoring time rules that it seems kind of unfair to go after the Vulcanmechs for enabling it more. I remember back around Gencon 2013 or something I came up with a strategy of playing all unique squads and leaving one member of the squad in my startzone and walking away from the board as soon as you killed the first full card of your opponent's army. (Also never tested it.) Literally any army can play super slow on purpose once you have a point lead, as soon as you accept that strategy as viable debating which armies are better at it is dumb. Heroscape relies on mutual trust to play at a reasonable pace to function with its current time rules.
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  #67  
Old November 20th, 2019, 04:44 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Sound like the timed rules of Chess would somewhat alleviate this. If the game is set to take up to 60 minutes, each player is allotted 30 minutes. You hit pause on your timer when your turn is done, and that starts your opponent's timer. So no one waits forever to time anything out. The problem here would be rolling dice. You have to wait for your opponent to roll their defense dice, or D20s, and that is the loophole to wasting your opponent's turn. The solution would be to hit the timer after you roll your dice, so they are wasting their own time when they roll their own.
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  #68  
Old November 20th, 2019, 04:48 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
We've definitely gone off topic here, but I was at a live timed tournament event many moons ago, and my opponent, who I will not name, and i had played a few rounds in the finals and the board state was such that the score of the game went to time with a pair of kills my opponent would win:

Opponent
1 life Cyprien (150)
Sonya (45)
1 Stinger (60)
Total: 255

Me:
14 10th Regiment Remaining (300)

The tournament rules were that after time goes off you finish the round before going to full card scoring and he was going last with an OM 3 on Cyprien. He conjectured that he could win by sitting and waiting the 35 minutes left on the clock until the end of round then flying Cyprien in for a 3v3 attack and Chilling touch that if he hit both he would win the game, by knocking my full card scoring down to 225 to his 255.

He sat there thinking about it not moving for a good 5 minutes before I called the Tournament Director over. The tournament director, who I will not name, ruled that my opponent's strategy was valid and if he decided to sit and wait for 30 more minutes then take the final turn of the game the result would stand.

I can do little describe the anger I felt in this situation. I will say that the rest of the tournament goers got wind of the situation and enough negative vibes were sent out towards this individual's strategy that he did not go through with it, took his turn and we finished as normal.
I think the correct play here is to just refuse to roll defense dice before time expires. With the pace established by him it should take at least 15 minutes to count up how many defense dice you need to roll.

In seriousness though there are so many ways to abuse full card scoring time rules that it seems kind of unfair to go after the Vulcanmechs for enabling it more. I remember back around Gencon 2013 or something I came up with a strategy of playing all unique squads and leaving one member of the squad in my startzone and walking away from the board as soon as you killed the first full card of your opponent's army. (Also never tested it.) Literally any army can play super slow on purpose once you have a point lead, as soon as you accept that strategy as viable debating which armies are better at it is dumb. Heroscape relies on mutual trust to play at a reasonable pace to function with its current time rules.
My point with the Vulcanmechs is that they just never leave the start zone in the first place. Q9 walks up and tries to solo the opponent (with the help of whatever else you have), and Vulcanmechs only come out to play in the last rounds to seal the deal.

Edit: And I don't think they give up any points on partial used that way, because Exos/the VI things don't count for partial.
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  #69  
Old November 20th, 2019, 04:54 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Sound like the timed rules of Chess would somewhat alleviate this. If the game is set to take up to 60 minutes, each player is allotted 30 minutes. You hit pause on your timer when your turn is done, and that starts your opponent's timer. So no one waits forever to time anything out. The problem here would be rolling dice. You have to wait for your opponent to roll their defense dice, or D20s, and that is the loophole to wasting your opponent's turn. The solution would be to hit the timer after you roll your dice, so they are wasting their own time when they roll their own.
That was suggested above, as well.

A chess timer is not well-suited to Heroscape. A move in chess is very simple. Maneuver a (comparatively) large piece, or possibly two, on a stable, flat surface, and push the button indicating your turn is over. That does not translate well to Heroscape, where the length of the turn is affected by the number of pieces - both yours and your opponent's - being manipulated, and by any number of dice - both yours and your opponent's, rolled at the speed your opponent wishes - being rolled. And the board itself, the the things upon it, are also affecting how long a turn takes. It does not translate well.

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  #70  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:05 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Sound like the timed rules of Chess would somewhat alleviate this. If the game is set to take up to 60 minutes, each player is allotted 30 minutes. You hit pause on your timer when your turn is done, and that starts your opponent's timer. So no one waits forever to time anything out. The problem here would be rolling dice. You have to wait for your opponent to roll their defense dice, or D20s, and that is the loophole to wasting your opponent's turn. The solution would be to hit the timer after you roll your dice, so they are wasting their own time when they roll their own.
That was suggested above, as well.

A chess timer is not well-suited to Heroscape. A move in chess is very simple. Maneuver a (comparatively) large piece, or possibly two, on a stable, flat surface, and push the button indicating your turn is over. That does not translate well to Heroscape, where the length of the turn is affected by the number of pieces - both yours and your opponent's - being manipulated, and by any number of dice - both yours and your opponent's, rolled at the speed your opponent wishes - being rolled. And the board itself, the the things upon it, are also affecting how long a turn takes. It does not translate well.
Also, it's an asymmetrical game. One person may have a tougher army to play with more decision making than the other; to say that both people should take an equal amount of time in that game is a bit ridiculous.

In my Top 8 loss to @dok in 2018, I had 2x Phantom Knights, Concan, 2x Warriors of Ashra, Jorhdawn, Arkmer, Kyntella vs his Tor-Kul-Na, 4x Grubs, Raelin, Sam Brown. By the end of round three, I had used all six units at least once, whereas Adam had only placed order markers on two cards (Grubs and Raelin). Adam said outright, "take your time placing OMs; you have a lot more to think about than me" (obviously regarding the OMs, he had decisions to make on positioning with his units during his turns). Having to manage more units was compounded by the fact that I started the game down due to the matchup, so naturally I needed more time than him over the course of the game.
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  #71  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:13 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

A theoretical timing mechanism in which both players get equal time - not that I believe one could work, in an over-the-board scenario - would not punish a player for having easier OM management, provided that both players have enough time to juggle a more challenging OM-placement army.

Though you bring up an interesting point, which is that if I wanted to squeeze you on the clock, I could just use extra time during the OM-placement phase. Presumably I am not on the clock, then, but we are both eating into the full allotment of time for the match.

This whole conversation is dumb, anyway. For the same reason that you & vegie both declined to play clock-eating strategies, and for the same reason that KD's opponent got basically shouted down at a tournament for trying to do so, it's a solution in search of a problem.

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  #72  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:25 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

But aren't dumb arguements what the internet is for?

I do think it is worth noting the biggest impact of C3V is more choice. these means you basically have no idea what you'll see at a tournament, so the rock-paper-scissors is less meaningful. I won an event with Parmino and SB because the weird armies people brought. More Choice with unique win conditions and soooooooo many units observing the power curve means the meta is unlike to change much.


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