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View Poll Results: How do you interpret the word "random" in these situations
Players MUST always roll a dice or shuffle the order markers and without either player looking 7 13.21%
Owner MUST shuffle/rearrange OMs but can look before the player chooses which he/she removes 0 0%
Owner CAN shuffle/rearrange OMs and can look before the player chooses, but is not required 11 20.75%
Owner CAN rearrange OMs but MUST do while looking before the player chooses, but is not required 1 1.89%
Owner CANNOT shuffle/rearrange OMs before the player chooses. OMs must be placed strategically 23 43.40%
Depends on who you play with and mood players are in, but can be decided differently each game 11 20.75%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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  #49  
Old February 8th, 2021, 12:34 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Voted option 6. I've played with a wide variety of skill and levels and have no issue with seeking to make the game fun. It helps that 95% of the time I'm the GM though



For comp play though, I've no issue with you (or squidface) if you snipe an Order Marker off of me knowing fully well it was a numbered one. Especially true if I was just putting OMs in order (like I do a vast majority of the time).


Really, its no different than if I focus fire a hero with 2 Order Markers on it knowing that you are going to lose at least 1 turn if that hero dies.
I disagree with the last line, this poll is about something completely different than choosing to destroy opponent’s figures to remove their turns. While I agree with the mentality of “if you are watching my habits like a hawk and snipe my OMs to punish me, that’s just being competitive,” the thing that gets me with the poll here is the word random. It’s not very random if you can use knowledge to pluck specific OMs with any reasonable amount consistency.

Perhaps quantifying/clarifying that would be more troublesome for me to do... but it’s how I feel about this, in a nutshell.

And that's perfectly fair and valid. I'd much rather have fun with the game than not, and fighting over a small mechanic at the game table is something I'd rather not bother with.
In casual games, I agree with being fast and loose with some rules. Heck, I often let my wife cheat by moving order markers between her army cards right in the middle of a round just so she can activate different figures.

I suppose if there were money or prizes on the line (say a tournament) I personally would absolutely want to follow option #1. Of course, even if I were a TD I would never force everyone to follow that rule if all parties involved in a specific game didn't care about whatever method they were already using. However if a fuss were to come up about it, I'd tell players to chuck the D20 to determine which OM is removed. Iron fist meme goes here.
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  #50  
Old February 8th, 2021, 01:49 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I've always played those sorts of powers by Option #5, and the only times that I've seen them at tournaments that's what I expected. That said, if I was using the unit and the other player didn't know (or forgot) that there was an OM removal power in play, then I'd have absolutely no problem with them shuffling/moving their OMs on the same cards to be placed more randomly. I also have no problem with shifting my own figures a bit so that opponents can go where they want to without denial, though, which I know was a contentious topic.

If I was playing anywhere else instead of hosting, then I'd play the power however the host wanted. Option #6 is probably the best answer in that regard, but I generally talk through powers/cards that the other players have never seen before the game anyway and make sure they know what each card can do and what will happen if it succeeds, so I've never seen anyone have an issue with Option #5 at my house before.
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  #51  
Old February 8th, 2021, 08:42 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

1-4 are all adding mechanics to the game that are not on the card or in the rulebook. Falls under “do what the card says, not what it doesn’t say.” Problem, of course, is it says to do something that is impossible without additional mechanics.

This leads me to believe #5 is correct and the card has poor word choice (“random” should be “without looking”).

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  #52  
Old April 11th, 2022, 06:44 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Don't have anything new to the debate here, just wanted to share that as a somewhat direct result of this thread, I played Mindflayer at Scapecon 2022. In my reverse match against @Sir Heroscape , playing all MacDirks, I lined up all of my order markers on the MacDirk Warriors in reverse order X 3 2 1, instead of the more subconscious 1 2 3 X. Sir H won initiative, psionic blasted a low defense MacDirk, and then stole my OMX trying to steal my 1. The Macdirks then mobbed the Mindflayer and killed him, knocking off an OM on the reverse side.

Basically my point is whatever the end ruling is, it's relevant, especially in Main Event style games where Mindflayer and Spiders are viable.
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  #53  
Old April 11th, 2022, 07:06 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Sounds like you did #5.

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  #54  
Old April 12th, 2022, 11:27 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Yes, I agree with #5. the placing of OM's is part of before rolling for initiative and is strategic and shouldn't be "messed with" because the position of those OM's changes also as you take turns. i.e. if I see he's taken OM1 and OM2 right next to each other, I might assume OM3 is in order.

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  #55  
Old April 12th, 2022, 12:19 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I still think that if you're trying to strategize based on how your opponent has placed their OMs, you're going explicitly against what the card tells you to do: pick an OM randomly.

~KoS, who could believe that "random" actually meant "without looking", but isn't inclined toward that interpretation when actually picking an OM randomly, like the card says to, is easy to do, and feels infinitely more fair.
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  #56  
Old April 12th, 2022, 02:31 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I think at the end of the day, TD's will just have to decide the ruling for each event. Not sure there can be only 1 correct interpretation here.

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  #57  
Old April 12th, 2022, 03:25 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

There can be, only one...
Interpretation.
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  #58  
Old April 12th, 2022, 03:55 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
~KoS, who could believe that "random" actually meant "without looking", but isn't inclined toward that interpretation when actually picking an OM randomly, like the card says to, is easy to do, and feels infinitely more fair.
*Is* it easy to do? If I look at how Order Markers are arranged, my brain processes what I think is the likely placement in microseconds. How do I then "randomly" select one without bringing in any mechanisms beyond what's laid out in the power text?

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  #59  
Old April 12th, 2022, 04:02 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I don't think the ODs' intention was to select the OM with a truly Randomized method. I'm pretty sure they used that verbiage to indicate that the opponent is not able to see the OM's and must select one "at random"...even though technically, it's not truly random. Had they intended a truly random selection I feel like they would have been a lot more descriptive on the process required for removing the OM's

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Old April 12th, 2022, 04:37 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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~KoS, who could believe that "random" actually meant "without looking", but isn't inclined toward that interpretation when actually picking an OM randomly, like the card says to, is easy to do, and feels infinitely more fair.
*Is* it easy to do? If I look at how Order Markers are arranged, my brain processes what I think is the likely placement in microseconds. How do I then "randomly" select one without bringing in any mechanisms beyond what's laid out in the power text?
Having the opponent shuffle the OMs and rolling a die are both very easy methods that have already been brought up in this thread. I don't see why the card text has to explicitly specify the method of random selection, because the method of random selection doesn't matter.

As another example, there are scenarios in the BftU rulebook that tell you to use a "random" glyph. They don't tell you how to select this glyph, so to do this you'd have to use some mechanism beyond what the rules tell you. I don't think that this means that you're just supposed to pick any face down glyph you like, even if you know exactly what it is from last game. I think the designers expect you to provide your own method of randomness, such as the extraordinarily simple algorithm of "shuffle up the glyphs face down until you don't know which is which, and then pick an arbitrary one" (as with OMs, you could argue that rolling a die is technically more random than shuffling, but I'd only bother with it if another player specifically requested it).

Obviously I can't get inside the designer's heads. Clearly there are people here who think that "random" means "without looking", and maybe that's indeed what the designers meant, and the power is just phrased poorly. Without talking to the designers, it's impossible to know one way or the other. But I don't buy the idea that because they didn't tell use exactly how to carry out the random selection, they couldn't possibly have meant "random" when they said "random".

~KoS, noting that he doesn't have anything against players just picking an OM without rolling/shuffling if both players feel that is "sufficiently random". There are, after all, lots of ways that we often violate the letter of the rules for convenience, e.g. not placing all the wound markers on a hero who is destroyed. The issue is when a player insists they have a right to strategically choose the OM to remove, against an opponent's desire to make the selection truly random.
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