The Book of Casual Rule: Knockback

[GreyOwl]

Sorry for not clarifying. Personally, I wouldn't count the wording in Flying as "explicit", because it doesn't refer to an official phase of a game turn. "When counting spaces" is something ambiguous that you could do at anytime, for any reason. I could "count spaces" while rolling initiative if I wanted, for example. It's not a well-defined game phase like "before attacking", "after moving", "when an opponent attacks", etc. Again, I fall back to my Phantom Walk example. The same reasoning that would justify using Flying when another figure moves your figure would hold up to allow Phantom Walk to be used the same way. That would mean figures could be moved through other figures when pushed back by Repulsors or whatever, and I really don't believe that was the intent of powers like that.

[Sporx]

Flying depends on the conditional clause "for movement." It does not take effect upon "counting spaces" at any time. The issue under discussion is pretty off-topic, but relevant to the preceding pages...

Because the concern is movement powers taking effect upon movement by other powers, perhaps a statement is necessary in the powers that cause other figures to move. In other words, Repulsors needs a statement like the Knockback rule. Maybe "When moving the figure, ignore all abilities that affect or take effect on the figure's movement."

[toyhandle]

A couple questions:

The Rulebook states:
"KNOCKBACK DAMAGE
Roll one attack die for Knockback Damage. A skull rolled counts as an unblockable hit to both the defending figure and any figure or destructible object that prevented its movement"

Example 4 in the rulebook states:
"...we must roll one unblockable attack die against Solomon Gundy and one unblockable attack die against Joker for Knockback Damage."

The rule seems to imply 1 die roll that affects both colliding figures/DO. The example implies separate rolls.

Has this been updated elsewhere, and I missed it?

I'm assuming both colliding figures must roll for Knockback Damage, even if you control the figure that is preventing movement?

And am I correct in my interpretation regarding Knockback, Flying, SuperStrength, and Falling Damage
"KNOCKBACK: MOVEMENT
When moving the figure, count changes in elevation normally and ignore all abilities that affect the figure's movement such as Flying, Climbing, etc."

So, a figure with just Flying would suffer from all Falling Damage due to Knockback, a figure with Superstrength would not suffer Normal or Major Falling Damage due to Knockback.



If the figure will receive falling damage, is that considered a terrain rule that would stop movement?


If being knocked back, movement would stop on a Glyph?

Movement would not stop on water?

Is this rule optional in the sense that not all c3g games require the rule be played, and is determined at the start of the game, and if used, ALL normal adjacent attacks by characters with Superstrength MUST account for Knockback, or,
The game can be played with or without it, and even with it in play, the attacking player may decide not to account for it during any eligible attack?
And if it's the second option, must the attacking player announce whether they want to account for Knockback before attacking?

[IAmBatman]

1. I'd have to look up the rules to see what exactly you're discussing there. Sounds like an inconsistency to me, but I can't be sure without looking (and itching to get back to this playtest, so I'll leave that to someone else).

2. You've interpreted the interactions with Flying and Super Strength correctly there, IMO.

3. Falling damage wouldn't stop movement unless receiving damage would stop movement somehow. The only way I can think of that falling damage would stop movement is by KOing a figure, in which case anything after that becomes irrelevant. But, put another way, a figure could take falling damage and, if it survives, continue to be knocked back additional spaces.

4. Glyphs and water would stop movement, IMO. Neither of these are abilities (i.e. special powers on army cards).

5. It's optional whether to use it or not. How you decide to use it is ultimately up to you, but it's only been tested as either all on or all off, rather than something you use selectively. I'd recommend either using it fully or not using it at all, rather than going for some middle ground.

[quozl]

1 die and 1 die does not imply 1 die. That means 2 dice.

[toyhandle]

Thank you!

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

3. Falling damage wouldn't stop movement unless receiving damage would stop movement somehow. The only way I can think of that falling damage would stop movement is by KOing a figure, in which case anything after that becomes irrelevant. But, put another way, a figure could take falling damage and, if it survives, continue to be knocked back additional spaces.

4. Glyphs and water would stop movement, IMO. Neither of these are abilities (i.e. special powers on army cards).

I was wondering about glyphs because I didn't see them mentioned, and thought, if Knockback were played as non-optional, one would have to be careful where you place your figures so as to avoid knocking the opponent onto a glyph.


I also snuck in another question via edit into my last post that I think was missed.



"I'm assuming both colliding figures must roll for Knockback Damage, even if you control the figure that is preventing movement?"


Because if Knockback were played as non-optional, one would also have to be careful when crowding the opponent, to avoid friendly-fire.


I was wondering about water because the rulebook states:


KNOCKBACK: MOVEMENT
Ignore all special terrain rules except when it would wound or destroy the figure.



And I was wondering if that also included height/falling damage as "terrain rules."



It also states under KNOCKBACK MOVEMENT:
Determine falling damage after Knockback has been resolved.


It seems like falling damage is not a terrain rule, and that the character would fall from height enough to cause extreme falling damage, but instead of immediately rolling the D20, one would continue to move the maximum number of Knockback spaces, account for Knockback Damage, and then roll the d20.

[toyhandle]

Originally Posted by quozl

1 die and 1 die does not imply 1 die. That means 2 dice.

Here's the Rule version:



Here's how the example is written:

[IAmBatman]

I'm pretty rusty on the rules, so seems like I had a few things wrong there. Apologies!

When figures collide and have to roll for knockback damage the player controlling the affected figures isn't relevant. You can knock people back into your own figures and can hurt your own figures that way.

I was wrong about water it seems! Apologies.

Height/falling damage are not considered terrain rules, no. I'm pretty sure that's just referring to rules based on terrain type (like road movement bonus or water movement stoppage, etc.).

I believe the example you had is incorrect and that it should be a single die roll for all affected figures. That's how I've played it in the past, at least.

[toyhandle]

Thank you thank you!
I've been a fan of classic for years, and am finally getting ready to play c3g. I'm going through all the c3g rules and cards for the original Marvel Master Set before I try and get my sis up to speed on all the extra rules.

[IAmBatman]

Cool. That's neat that you're going all in! I'll fess that I don't often play with Knockback, though I've enjoyed it when I have.

[toyhandle]

Originally Posted by Griffin

The rule itself is optional, meaning that it is either "THE RULE" or it isn't - to be determined by the players. If the rule is in place, it is in affect and represents the random and destructive results of powerful attacks against its targets.

I'm always inquiring about rules, but really because I find them so interesting and want to adhere to them as best as possible.

I will say, this is the only example where I house rule (and doing so hurts me inside a little). My friends and I declare if Knockback will be applied before each normal attack, and personally, I find it extremely balanced that way. Most games are close. And, it's a fun way of strategizing positioning per character.

For example, I do a lot of 1v1 matches, and Hulk is always a popular choice among my friends. Unless the defending figure is pinned against a wall/obstacle, it's usually better to have Hulk *smash* the enemy, so as not to lose adjacency and risk losing Rage. Simultaneously, it's usually better for the opponent to try and Knockback Hulk with each normal attack.

If there's a reason why our methods are broken, I'd be happy to hear why though.

[tcglkn]

Nope that sounds like a fun way to play it.

I probably do that accidentally when I play because I forget about the rule sometimes. Mostly when I am testing though I don't use this rule cause it can make games go longer.