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  #109  
Old November 21st, 2019, 12:08 AM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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What I got from all that is that people aren't going to be asking us to run VC events at GenCon anymore...
I mean, I think it would be super neat if GenCon ran VC events every year... This whole tidalwave of drama aside, there's some fun stuff that's come out of VC, and while they don't always hit the mark, they do try. I hope that the stirrings here, between a relatively small selection of the VC staff, and some of the GenCon Legends, doesn't have to ruin things for everyone else.
I just want to point out that none of us are legends. We're all just regular old dudes (and, in the case of Ken, actually old).
Wait a minute, how many games can I be a legend in?
All I know is that one of you won the main event with Hatamoto Taro, and that's Legendary status in my book. There's also the all Drow Chainfighter army, which I absolutely love, and was my favorite unit at the time that happened.
All I know is this guy decided to come in here and start stirring the pot... He's sabotaging my podcast by driving away the listeners! That's not very legendary. He thinks I won't kick him off...

Edit: to be clear to anyone who doesn't know, we have no beef with DS; we're all friends here, despite differing opinions on certain things. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that I was joking on the previous page.
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  #110  
Old November 21st, 2019, 12:15 AM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Edit: to be clear to anyone who doesn't know, we have no beef with DS; we're all friends here, despite differing opinions on certain things. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that I was joking on the previous page.
This is a true fact. These are my friends, and I want everyone to stop sending me PMs about how OEAO is not as tall as they thought he would be, when they met him in person. He's regular height, and I don't care what you say.

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  #111  
Old November 21st, 2019, 12:21 AM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Edit: to be clear to anyone who doesn't know, we have no beef with DS; we're all friends here, despite differing opinions on certain things. I'm sorry I didn't make it clear that I was joking on the previous page.
This is a true fact. These are my friends, and I want everyone to stop sending me PMs about how OEAO is not as tall as they thought he would be, when they met him in person. He's regular height, and I don't care what you say.
Stop telling people I play Grimnak to compensate for my height...
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  #112  
Old November 21st, 2019, 12:32 AM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

That explains your attachment to the Heavies. . .

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  #113  
Old November 21st, 2019, 01:00 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Some thoughts:
  • VC unit balance/pricing is absolutely tighter than unit balance was in the classic releases. We have a larger playtest group and longer playtest process, and more significantly, we are building on 13 years of experience playing the game. Part of the reason Raelin is so crazy is because she came out at the beginning. The most OP stuff that came out at the end of classic (Hydras, Mezzos) is much less OP than the most OP stuff from 2005/2006. Balancing stuff is really hard when you don't have a metagame to work against.

    For these same reasons (experience with the metagame and with development) VC has actually gotten better at balance over time. At this point we've been at it longer than the original designers were. We have a great set of playtesting leads right now and very little gets past them.

    If I had it to do again, would spearmen cost 90, Quahon cost 210, and Incendiborgs have a range of 5? Yes, yes, and yes. But these are relatively minor tweaks, and "A" units are not a disaster anyway.

  • The original design team wasn't going to use future waves to balance out those OP units. The idea that something was coming around the bend to balance Raelin should be plainly silly.

    IMO the most blatant "bring strong stuff down" design (Repulsors) and the most blatant "raise weak stuff up" design (Death Knights) are two of the worst things the ODT ever produced. (Deathreavers were arguably a "raise weak stuff up" design that had massive unintended consequences.) Additonally, several of my least favorite VC designs are the ones that set out to do those sorts of things. Going out of your way to patch old designs with new ones is often a path to bad or hacky designs.

  • Marutuk with Cathar/Mezzos/10th/Cutters does not strike me as something liable to alter a minmaxed metagame in a major way. Marutuk is better at dealing with a screen than many big hitters, but still gets pulled down. In a meta with Knights + multiple champions, Dwarves, rats+stingers+Kaemon, and of course massed 4th, there's lots of answers. I honestly would be comfortable playing rats & unique ranged against those Marutuk armies, too, and I don't think the greenscale matchup is horribly slanted either.

    It's an army in the mix but I don't think it's so strong that it significantly alters the meta. Most of the time I'd rather Rae/Marcus with my 10th than Marutuk.

    Marutuk with Cathar/Mezzos/10th/Cutters is absolutely a viable competitive build; don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's strong enough that it tilts the meta significantly.

  • The above should not be taken to mean that a truly competitive double blind prebuilt VC-inclusive event would be classic units only. For sure, VC units would appear. But nothing in VC really takes a Q9 ratpodge out of the top slot. Everything is still playing around that matchup, and trying to "meta the meta" by building a counter-counter army is just a really cool way to go 3-2.

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  #114  
Old November 21st, 2019, 01:52 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

@dok love hearing your insight. I've already updated my Spearmen to 90 points for home games, I'll eventually update Quahon to 210. Haven't picked up the incendiborgs because of their strength but I may pick them up if 5 range makes them more manageable.

For me, my local meta is basically "avoid fielding units that will **** off my wife" so anything that feels too strong I ban real quick less I lose my gaming partner
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  #115  
Old November 21st, 2019, 01:58 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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For me, my local meta is basically "avoid fielding units that will **** off my wife" so anything that feels too strong I ban real quick less I lose my gaming partner
I don't think this philosophy has to be confined to the home. This is our local tournament meta, too.

There's one guy who keeps bringing Q9. Eventually, somebody might say something to him about it. He still hasn't managed to win a tournament, so maybe it's not a big deal. But FTMP we are not trying to min/max our builds.

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  #116  
Old November 21st, 2019, 02:25 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

What I find interesting in Heroscape is the fairly stable meta units that exist and have always been strong. As mentioned some were just OP from the get go and there was little or ever will be any way to mitigate those aside from restriction or banning ala Magic. However others are just solid units that have never waned from the list.

D&D Miniatures through it's run found many ways to modify the metagame with very strong figures and combos that often took older ones out of the box and made them one of the stables of an army build. IMO this doesn't happen as much in Heroscape because of how the game plays differently and less overall units being released over time. There was more forced meta changes in D&D Minis because they were selling a randomized booster product so had to keep players buying. Heroscape you only bought because you wanted those units. Some were better than others, some sadly very overpriced (I'm looking at you Einar Imperium).

I can say that explaining to my buddy Dave who is still very new to Heroscape how much units like Raelin, Q9 and Rats are cheese that can honestly ruin the game is interesting. I've made him play things aside from that because it's better for him for learning the game. Some people like that one guy DS sounds like he hasn't learned that yet. It does remind me of the tourney back in Cali where only kids 10 and under were allowed to use Q9.

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  #117  
Old November 21st, 2019, 02:38 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

In 2016 the Louisville tournaments had Revisit the Past tournaments where January you could only bring ROTV then each month they added a wave or two as if it was back in Heroscape heydey of constant releases. @NecroBlade brought nothing but the cheesiest army possible each time (including Raelin & Krav Maga in most armies) but he practically announced his army ahead of time, so his idea was for opponents to counter the best army - training us to being a master at "Meta" armies. Unfortunately most of us were stuck in our (I'll try to beat great armies with crap) and he won most of the tournaments. For being some of the best players in the country IMHO, we do have a culture of experimentation in armies rather than bringing the absolute best possible. I feel bad we did not all join him in his experiment, but it is the opposite of @Dad_Scaper and @SuperSamyon said their "meta is".

When going to C3V enabled tournament I fluctuate on bringing what I feel is the strongest army vs what I feel is a good but not great army that I'll have fun with even if I might not win all the way. I think the "meta" is more how much people join in the culture of the events either bringing strong builds or fun builds or more newer C3V, or hodge-podge, etc. I think you will get all types of people/armies at events but there is defiantly different "cultures" at different tournaments and I think the culture more sets armies versus meta at least at tournaments I have been at in Louisville, Cincinnati, Dayton, C2P, Pittsburgh, and oldschool NEO/Cleveland.
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  #118  
Old November 21st, 2019, 03:23 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

You bring up a great point @lefton4ya . If I was playing against some of you guys, I would work to bring a competitive army so we could have a spirited game. However, since my opponents are barely even at the level of casual player, my goal for each game is to have a great experience. Culturally speaking, we are more about playing scenarios and adventures rather then playing competitive games which is why I would never even introduce Q9 to the table. All my armies have themes and I'm happy to introduce a weak army even if it has a low level of success for the sake of memorable moments. Just ask me how my all Samurai army did against my wife's KOW, Gilbert, and Raelin combo.


The ROTV units are great for scenarios or for situations where the odds are stacked against you which matches what the original intention for Heroscape was which was Scenario play. The community that remained once Heroscape "died" were mostly competitive players which is why the C3V units are better suited for tourney play versus the ROTV set.
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  #119  
Old November 21st, 2019, 03:37 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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The ROTV units are great for scenarios or for situations where the odds are stacked against you which matches what the original intention for Heroscape was which was Scenario play. The community that remained once Heroscape "died" were mostly competitive players which is why the C3V units are better suited for tourney play versus the ROTV set.
That's a very good point, hadn't thought about that.
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  #120  
Old November 21st, 2019, 04:38 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

I'd say my neck of the woods (on Scapers, not in real life) is much less about competitive armies and more about fun builds, scenarios, and the like. But I guess that's part of the superhero experience. We're much less tourney-driven.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


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