Top (Roscoe Dillon)

[Arch-vile]

Looking for one more vote here.

[Arch-vile]

this passes on time

Moving to final editing

[Ronin]

When Top or an ally in the Rogues faction attacks a figure that is within 6 clear spaces of Top, the defender cannot move this activation and has -1 Defense for each feint rolled by the attacking figure.

Do we want feints or blanks? I think if we care about feints we probably don't want "rolled"?

[japes]

I think we want rolled almost never

[Arch-vile]

I assumed we'd use feints typically unless like for Flash's Speed Dodge that has to specifically avoid feints for power concerns.

Maybe:

MAKING THE WORLD SPIN
When Top or an ally in the Rogues faction attacks a figure that is within 6 clear spaces of Top, the defender cannot move this activation and has -1 Defense for each feint the attacker has. Robots and objects are not affected by this ability.

[Yodaking]

I'm not really sure how everyone else sees it at this point, but I'll lay out what I thought we were doing with the different terms.

You roll dice and the roll results in a random number of skulls/shields/blanks.
You count up each of those that were rolled and convert them into hits/blocks/feints accordingly.
You then add/subtract/double the hits/blocks/feints as directed by different abilities and game effects.
Defender does the same if this is a combat action.
Resolve any abilities that trigger based on hits/blocks/feints.
You now resolve the hit - blocks = wounds equation.

So I think most abilities will just want to refer to the final tally results, thus hits/blocks/feints would be used. A few abilities might not want to be based on final results, instead based on the random rolled results before any modifications take place. Those would refer to skulls/shields/blocks, letting you know it's an ability that cares about the unmodified roll rather than the final modified result of all rolls & abilities combined.

So Zatanna adds feints, Aba subtracts feints, and Flash dodges based on having at least 1 feint. I think that is how everyone wants it to work.

Someone might have a counter strike type of ability that works when they have the same number of shields on defense as the number of skulls rolled on offense, thus hits/blocks added via some ability aren't included in that calculation. It's purely a game of chance, both sides roll dice without being able to modify the result of that game within a game. Oracle can still help that attacker 'win' the combat though and deal a W, she just can't help them 'win' the mini 'perfect block counter strike' game.

For this card in particular, I would think subtracting defense based on feints would be fine. It might act as a deterrent or counter to someone thinking about adding a feint that wasn't rolled naturally. Vs. Flash, he's going to dodge via the feint, so he doesn't much care about the defense loss. He won't be able to move though, so at least you might be able to get in another try at hitting Flash when he fails to generate a feint or prevent him from going and picking up a token or something. So still useful.

[IAmBatman]

We had an entire conversation in Flash's thread about why he's triggering based on blanks and not feints that I don't want to rehash here (see Flash's thread for context). In that conversation, I believe we covered why Zatanna should be adding blanks and Abra should be subtracting them (*if* he wishes to directly interact with Flash).

In general, it should be fine for things to trigger on feints (like here) and subtract feints. Probably shouldn't be adding feints to abilities on other cards except with a decent amount of restraints (i.e. practice feint restraint).

But, yeah, I think the use of "feints" here is just fine. Then if you have some Rogue who like generates feints by rolling shields or something, it'd work more efficiently with Top, which seems like a good thing.

[Arch-vile]

Sounds like everyone's on board the "feints" train for this design at least. Any other comments or is this one ready for art?

[japes]

Is there any changed needed here?

[Arch-vile]

I just need to remember to call for an on deck vote. Will tag people tonight!

[Arch-vile]

I propose to on deck

@IAmBatman @Tornado @Arkham @Ericth74 @Yodaking @MrNobody

[Yodaking]

yea