Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Heroscape Strategy Articles
Heroscape Strategy Articles Heroscape Strategy Articles with discussions. Including Order Markers, Units, Game Play, etc.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #49  
Old November 28th, 2018, 01:44 AM
Dysole's Avatar
Dysole Dysole is offline
PuppetMaster & #2 Ranked CoNner
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Oregon Eugeneish area
Posts: 17,560
Images: 262
Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Dysole is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Wordsmithing

The disagreement is primarily around the words "decides".

I have played many, many games where the dice were a factor in the final decision. I can recall one game where dice were the factor that decided the game. (Classic league game against vegies dad. Nilf wrecked everything in a round and a half) I can recall many games where dice were a factor because I or my opponent made a decision that caused the dice to have greater weight than they could have. I can recall several games where a certain string of dice tilted the game to the point where it was difficult to win.

If we're using "decides" to mean "no one, not even a perfect Heroscape playing computer could win that game", then the number is probably not that far off from the quoted 1% (a number I'd quibble with only because I'm a math person).

If we're using "decides" to mean "has a larger factor on the game than skill did", I'd probably put that number higher (not too high, but probably somewhere in the 5-10% range).

Really though, getting hung up on the specific number (which is part of the reason I'd quibble over 1% ~_^) distracts from the major point. There are very few, if any games, where you couldn't have done something to make the dice less of a factor.

~Dysole, combining her undergraduate major and minor into one post
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old November 28th, 2018, 11:31 AM
Flash_19's Avatar
Flash_19 Flash_19 is offline
Frank Lloyd Wright of Scape
 
Join Date: June 29, 2017
Location: USA - UT - Saratoga Springs
Posts: 1,122
Images: 37
Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness Flash_19 wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

I agree with @Sir Heroscape 100%.

Dice introduce variability, and as much as a player would want to, that variability cannot be controlled, only influenced by the decisions a player makes. Therefore, it would be a logical fallacy to suggest that mistakes in a game cause a person to lose a game. IOW I don't think there is a way to measure and know definitively and without question that a player lost because of mistakes they made. You can have good reasons to think so (aka correlation), but you can't ever establish causation.

Sir H makes another solid point worth repeating. It is problematic to use the word "mistake" or "wrong" to describe decisions made in a game. I've seen plenty of moves that from my perspective were huge mistakes, yet they seemed to have no consequences for the player who made the mistake.

I do agree that blaming your dice is not helpful, and can lead you to overlook decisions that you made in the game that put you into an unfavorable position. But at the end of the day, the dice are a significant part of the game.

Maps | OHS Maps | Customs
"I think you're absolutely correct in your logic and reasoning and couldn't agree more." ~BiggaBullfrog


Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old November 29th, 2018, 03:19 PM
caps's Avatar
caps caps is offline
My six-year-old sister-in-law calls the shots
 
Join Date: October 6, 2010
Location: USA - CO - Denver area
Posts: 16,668
Images: 352
caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth caps is a man of the cloth
Re: Wordsmithing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
The disagreement is primarily around the words "decides".

I have played many, many games where the dice were a factor in the final decision. I can recall one game where dice were the factor that decided the game. (Classic league game against vegies dad. Nilf wrecked everything in a round and a half) I can recall many games where dice were a factor because I or my opponent made a decision that caused the dice to have greater weight than they could have. I can recall several games where a certain string of dice tilted the game to the point where it was difficult to win.

If we're using "decides" to mean "no one, not even a perfect Heroscape playing computer could win that game", then the number is probably not that far off from the quoted 1% (a number I'd quibble with only because I'm a math person).

If we're using "decides" to mean "has a larger factor on the game than skill did", I'd probably put that number higher (not too high, but probably somewhere in the 5-10% range).

Really though, getting hung up on the specific number (which is part of the reason I'd quibble over 1% ~_^) distracts from the major point. There are very few, if any games, where you couldn't have done something to make the dice less of a factor.

~Dysole, combining her undergraduate major and minor into one post

Quote:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dysole again.
Bummer.

Formerly known as capsocrates
--
Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations!
--
Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness
--
caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate

--
Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old December 25th, 2018, 10:19 PM
OEAO's Avatar
OEAO OEAO is offline
Cooking Rice is Hard
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Location: USA-CT-Hartford
Posts: 2,417
Images: 18
OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

I just watched this short video, and although Scape isn't a wargame, the subject matter is very relevant to Scape. Enjoy and Merry Christmas!

Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old December 26th, 2018, 08:13 PM
Sir Heroscape's Avatar
Sir Heroscape Sir Heroscape is offline
Sir Formerly Known As adoney
 
Join Date: September 14, 2015
Location: U.S - Iowa
Posts: 9,581
Images: 146
Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth Sir Heroscape is a man of the cloth
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

That's a good watch. Thanks for posting!

Sir Heroscape's Content
Customs, Maps, Battle Reports
YouTube Channel, Trade List,
'Scaper of the Month, Burnout Format
Tourney Record: 282 - 124
Online Record: 19 - 22
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old January 2nd, 2019, 02:26 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,736
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Wordsmithing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
If we're using "decides" to mean "no one, not even a perfect Heroscape playing computer could win that game", then the number is probably not that far off from the quoted 1% (a number I'd quibble with only because I'm a math person).

If we're using "decides" to mean "has a larger factor on the game than skill did", I'd probably put that number higher (not too high, but probably somewhere in the 5-10% range).
In both of the above examples, we have to assume the decisions of the opponent are fixed. I've played many many games where I would have had a very small chance of winning against an opponent making what I'd consider the correct decisions, but I had a much higher chance of winning if my opponent made what I'd consider mistakes. If that higher chance is somewhere around 50%, and I win, then was that game decided by dice, or by my opponent's mistakes? The correct answer is both, right?

At the risk of getting political, this thread reminds me a little of arguments about why Trump won in 2016. So many people want to say that a given thing (often the hacked e-mails or whatever) was or was not "the reason". The correct answer is that the election was really close, so many many different things were probably all, individually, necessary and decisive in making the difference. The same is true in a game of Heroscape. The dice decided every game where dice rolls were required, in some sense, but in any close game both the dice and the decisions were likely to have been decisive.

I will say that in my ridiculously long tally of competitive Heroscape games, I've only had 3 or 4 games where I thought I was a significant favorite going in, and I felt I lost primarily because of the dice. If that's what OEA1 means by 1%, then I'd support the 1% figure he cites.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old January 3rd, 2019, 03:49 AM
LuckyST's Avatar
LuckyST LuckyST is offline
 
Join Date: August 22, 2018
Location: NY
Posts: 6
LuckyST Woo who?
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Wow! The first post of this thread was a real treasure to me. Orcs are my favorite
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old January 20th, 2019, 09:32 PM
TradeMark TradeMark is offline
 
Join Date: October 13, 2007
Posts: 19
TradeMark has disabled reputation
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

One commandment to add which I dont think gets enough attention- Think through the ORDER of operations beyond just the OMs. What I mean is, of the opportunity presents itself to conduct an action in multiple ways, ensure you have weighed in which way is most beneficial to conduct.

2 brief examples.
In a game recently, my 10th Reg was trying to pop Isamu. They spread out in a pattern that guaranteed his 4 range dodge move would result in him being targetable at least 3 times, however had one model shot out of order, he would have only required 1 successful dodge to escape.

Similarly, while attacking from height offers the best advantage, it is often better to attack from a less advantageous position first if it would clear the other model to an attack that would be lost in opposite order. Think of 2 ranged models engaged to the same figure, one higher, one lower, in such a way that the lower one does not have an alternate target, but the higher does. Many times I've seen in the heat of the moment calls where the advantageous model attacks and wins, but the disadvantages one now has no move.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old January 23rd, 2019, 01:43 PM
OEAO's Avatar
OEAO OEAO is offline
Cooking Rice is Hard
 
Join Date: August 6, 2011
Location: USA-CT-Hartford
Posts: 2,417
Images: 18
OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun OEAO is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: Orc's Tips to Improve Fast

Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeMark View Post
One commandment to add which I dont think gets enough attention- Think through the ORDER of operations beyond just the OMs. What I mean is, of the opportunity presents itself to conduct an action in multiple ways, ensure you have weighed in which way is most beneficial to conduct.

2 brief examples.
In a game recently, my 10th Reg was trying to pop Isamu. They spread out in a pattern that guaranteed his 4 range dodge move would result in him being targetable at least 3 times, however had one model shot out of order, he would have only required 1 successful dodge to escape.

Similarly, while attacking from height offers the best advantage, it is often better to attack from a less advantageous position first if it would clear the other model to an attack that would be lost in opposite order. Think of 2 ranged models engaged to the same figure, one higher, one lower, in such a way that the lower one does not have an alternate target, but the higher does. Many times I've seen in the heat of the moment calls where the advantageous model attacks and wins, but the disadvantages one now has no move.
Fair enough; probably worth adding. Not a mistake I really see people make at GenCon, but certainly helpful for newer players.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Heroscape Strategy Articles
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can we improve on the original units? SirSlayton68 Custom Units & Army Cards 29 July 19th, 2009 01:22 PM
Improve my army! deutschboy Competitive Armies Discussion 6 August 11th, 2007 10:13 AM
casual army i want to improve Unknownknowned Competitive Armies Discussion 9 August 3rd, 2007 03:19 PM
Improve this unit!!!! The Obsidian Guardians zombiedude HeroScape General Discussion 11 January 25th, 2007 09:35 AM
improve your english dra(gon) General 4 August 30th, 2006 06:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:28 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.