The Book of Namor (Avengers/X-Men)

[IAmBatman]

Lex, some Bodyguards, maybe Hired Guns can all be had for a pretty low cost, though. You could still get another Unique Hero or two into most builds without trouble.

[MrNobody]

I do think we might want to restore it to “Namor anf the chosen figure will not take leaving engagement attacks from each other.”

Question - If Figure A is engaged to Figure B and Figure A is placed from their original space onto a space that is still adjacent to Figure B, do they take an LEA from Figure B? I guess I’m asking if “place” works by temporarily removing them from the battlefield, kinda like Flying does.

[IAmBatman]

I believe placement works like that, yes.

[japes]

Not a big fan of being able to force LEA by swarming someone and then letting Namor move them.

The rest of the card I think is awesome.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I could definitely see an argument for going full disengage with that to avoid shenanigans. Black Panther's thing would still work, right?

[MrNobody]

It would. Just feels like a bummer to take something away from Namor when it’s already a factional design element, y’know?

But Strange can only do it to a figure once per turn with his movement thing, while Namor can do it to the same figure a bunch of times. So I see how that could start to feel cheap after 3 or more rolls of 14+.

[Alexandros]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

ARROGANT AVENGER
At the start of the game, place a white Avenger Marker on the Army Card of a friendly Unique Hero. If you lose initiative, you must immediately remove an Order Marker on the Army Card of a figure you control. If that figure has an Avenger Marker on its Army Card, you may immediately take a turn with Namor. You may not take any additional turns.

I'm either not grokking this correctly or it's a little odd. I feel like this is an all downside mechanic that's a little easier to mitigate if you have other Avengers. The Illuminati already has some initiative tampering so it seems like he's way better as an Avenger/Illuminati member than he is outside of it? Imo this clashes a bit with the intent of him being a multi-faction player.

[toyhandle]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Question - If Figure A is engaged to Figure B and Figure A is placed from their original space onto a space that is still adjacent to Figure B, do they take an LEA from Figure B? I guess I’m asking if “place” works by temporarily removing them from the battlefield, kinda like Flying does.

Correct, so the wording should be "Namor will not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure." since Namor is the one always breaking engagement.

I don't mind forced LEAs, since 14 is not the easiest hit, and it is an Illuminati thing. Did you want it to be that you get X number of attempts no matter what? Or this?:

"You may continue rolling for "Imperius Rex!" until you do not roll 14 or higher, up to X additional times, where X is the number of Unique Heroes in your army that are destroyed or have at least 1 Wound Marker on their Army Card."

And my one ask is for Atlantean Squads to be included in the folks he's avenging, since his people are his primary motivation.

"where X is the number of Unique Heroes or Atlantean Squads in your army that are destroyed or have at least 1 Wound Marker on their Army Card."

Fairly certain that "destroyed Atlantean Squads" would refer to one card's worth of a squad, not the totality of what you drafted of a particular squad if you drafted multiple.

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by Alexandros

I'm either not grokking this correctly or it's a little odd. I feel like this is an all downside mechanic that's a little easier to mitigate if you have other Avengers. The Illuminati already has some initiative tampering so it seems like he's way better as an Avenger/Illuminati member than he is outside of it? Imo this clashes a bit with the intent of him being a multi-faction player.

Getting to burn an OM for a start-of-round turn can actually be a pretty great upside in a lot of builds, since you can burn the X OM and essentially get a free turn you wouldn't get otherwise.

Here's a rundown of how he could help the other factions.

X-MEN

Spoiler Alert!

With the X-Men, he mostly thematically goes with the Utopian-era characters like Cyclops II. I'd probably put the Avenger Marker on Cyclops, since you usually try to keep him alive for as long as possible anyways. Cyclops has an initiative boosting power that requires you to reveal the X OM, but nothing's stopping you from revealing the OM with Cyclops and then removing it with Namor. Cyclops also really likes how Imperius Rex interacts with his Leader of the X-Men power.

Admittedly, Emma Frost II is another big thematic partner, and her Psychic Surgery won't play great in an army with Namor. But her Neural Jumpstart will be a great pairing with him.

BLACK ORDER

Spoiler Alert!

The Black Order is still kinda getting built up as a faction, but Black Swan is obviously needed to pull Namor in as a Destroyer. She has an initiative boost power, in a kinda reverse funky way. Losing the X OM actually also really helps the Black Order bonding power. I'd most likely just drop the Avenger Marker on whoever the burliest Destroyer is.

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Originally Posted by toyhandle

Correct, so the wording should be "Namor will not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure." since Namor is the one always breaking engagement.

Not if he chooses to move in a way that still leaves him engaged with the chosen figure and then still pulls the chosen figure to a different space adjacent to him. So I think we need to have them not take LEAs from each other?

I don't mind forced LEAs, since 14 is not the easiest hit, and it is an Illuminati thing. Did you want it to be that you get X number of attempts no matter what? Or this?:

I think I prefer it the way it's worded in the SP right now - it's less swingy overall, I'd guess.

And my one ask is for Atlantean Squads to be included in the folks he's avenging, since his people are his primary motivation.

Fairly certain that "destroyed Atlantean Squads" would refer to one card's worth of a squad, not the totality of what you drafted of a particular squad if you drafted multiple.

So I'm open to this, but I want to raise a few points.

A) I don't think the thematic focus here is on him being an Atlantean leader. Being Atlantean royalty is always going to be an important part of Namor as a character, but a design can't represent every element of a character at once. In Avengers/X-Men/Illuminati stories, Namor usually isn't rolling up with an Atlantean army, he's a singular hero figure. That said, I think there's totally room for a full King Namor design.

B) We also don't really have his people in the game - the only Atlantean Squad we have are the DC/Aquaman ones. Keeping this limited to Unique Heroes and then making Marvel Atlanteans as Uncommon Heroes would actually be a way to encourage him to play with the correct characters.

C) I think the "squad = 1 cards worth of characters" ruling is muddy at the very best, I'd imagine it would be something that people would be constantly misplaying.

So I guess overall I'll ask for some more opinions, either for/against?

[IAmBatman]

I can see the theme of it, but I think ultimately I side with more elegance and leaving it off, then making his people more of a focus of another design.

[toyhandle]

Good point with B, which has my vote!

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Not if he chooses to move in a way that still leaves him engaged with the chosen figure and then still pulls the chosen figure to a different space adjacent to him. So I think we need to have them not take LEAs from each other?

Oh, right, no LEAs from each other is the way to go.

[MrNobody]

I was waiting to see if anybody had more concerns, especially along the lines of what Alexandros said. But looks like we're good!

Set points to 290, since after some discussion that'll be a solid Illuminati value.

Let's go to Initial Playtesting!