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  #217  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
So there seems to be the "Avenger Mirror" camp and the "Wow Factor" camp. I'm in the "Wow Factor" camp, and I think the Justice League Strategy Glyphs have it.
Haha. If I saw it that way I'd be in the wow factor camp. But, unsurprisingly, I don't see it that way.

I am of the opinion that the final product should have wow factor, but that that is achieved by creative new twists on existing mechanics. When I read all this disucssion of team cards and strategy glyphs, I just see a lot of extra rules.

Now, new extra rules can be good, or even necessary, at times. But don't confuse new rules with "wow factor". "Wow factor" comes from cool gameplay mechanics. That can be achieved using a whole new set of rules, sure, but it can also be achieved by using existing ones in new and creative ways.

Creating a whole new set of rules and a new type of card doesn't guarantee "wow factor". Creating another team that uses markers to denote its members doesn't prevent it. These are simply tools to achieve a goal.
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  #218  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:47 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Have these proposed glyphs been posted yet?
Not super refined, polished, or anywhere near "final" versions, but some idea buds. We've been focused on winning hearts and minds for the overall concept rather than locking into specific powers.

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  #219  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:53 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Absolutely, dok, I don't disagree with your overall analysis. Rather than "Wow Factor" (as less of a shameless sales pitch ) I probably could've said: emphasis on uniqueness.

I really don't think the path Sock and I are promoting is reinventing the wheel. It's just taking the Utility Glyph concept and tweaking it to house team synergies, just like the marker idea is tweaking markers to house team synergies.

I just happen to like how the glyph mechanics work a bit better in terms of how they communicate theme, what they allow us to accomplish, and so forth.

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Last edited by IAmBatman; July 24th, 2015 at 10:54 AM. Reason: Forgot a dis! :-P
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  #220  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:55 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Have these proposed glyphs been posted yet?
Not super refined, polished, or anywhere near "final" versions, but some idea buds. We've been focused on winning hearts and minds for the overall concept rather than locking into specific powers.
You won't win my heart or mind until I see something.

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  #221  
Old July 24th, 2015, 10:58 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

I think my main problem with it is that making if a glyph, instead of a Marker makes the Justice League feel like a group of guys with communicators or something, and having a guy to hand them out, instead of having leaders, and strategists for the team.

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  #222  
Old July 24th, 2015, 11:00 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Have these proposed glyphs been posted yet?
Not super refined, polished, or anywhere near "final" versions, but some idea buds. We've been focused on winning hearts and minds for the overall concept rather than locking into specific powers.
You won't win my heart or mind until I see something.
Yeah, an actual product might make me want to buy it. At the moment, it feels like being sold a promise, and in real life that would be a bad investment.

life's short, why not make an impact on the world? make some peoples lives better, have a few good laughs, and then when it's all over go out with BANG!
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  #223  
Old July 24th, 2015, 11:08 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Working on writing up a draft using what has been brainstormed here, the Utility Glyph concept, and so forth as a starting place. Give me a bit and I should have something.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #224  
Old July 24th, 2015, 11:24 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

I'm sure there would be additional needed tweaks and things I'm missing out on, plus plenty of room to debate the individual powers and refine the mechanics, but this is my initial shot at it:

JUSTICE LEAGUE STRATEGIC PLANNING
At the start of the game, after Order Markers are placed and before initiative is rolled, you may place up to three League Strategy Equipment Glyphs of different types on this card. Martian Manhunter cannot lose these Equipment Glyphs by any means unless he is destroyed.

(Each of these bullet points would be its own glyph, with a specific character in mind.)

• Once per round, you may reveal the “X” Order Marker on a Batman you control and immediately reorganize any Order Markers on Army Cards you control.

• At the start of the game, if you control Cyborg, place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up in any empty space in your Start Zone.

• Before moving a Flash you control, you may choose a small or medium figure you control adjacent to that Flash. After moving that Flash, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Flash.

• Once per game, before a figure you control adjacent to your Green Lantern would roll defense, you may add X dice to the roll, where X is the number of Battery Markers on your Green Lantern’s Army Card.

• When you attack with Black Canary’s Canary Cry Special Attack, figures you control not affected by the attack. After attacking with Black Canary’s Canary Cry Special Attack, you may move any figures you control within 3 spaces of your Black Canary up to 3 spaces each. Figures moved this way do not take leaving engagement attacks.

• For each Order Marker you remove from your Doctor Fate when using Helm of Nabu, you may instead add 2 to your roll.

• Immediately after placing an opponent’s figure with your Wonder Woman’s Golden Lasso Special Power, you may look at any unrevealed Order Marker’s on that figure’s Army Card.

• If an opponent’s figure within 10 clear sight spaces of your Green Arrow moves adjacent to another figure you control, you may immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 16 or higher, the opponent’s figure receives one wound.

• Once per round, after using your Aquaman’s Hand of the Waterbearer Special Power, you may use it 1 additional time.

• Start the game with one Water tile, one Ice tile, one Lava Field tile, and one Shadow Tile on this card. Once per game, after moving your Zatanna and instead of attacking with her, you may place one of these tiles onto any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of your Zatanna.

• All figures you control who start their turn within 5 clear sight spaces of your Red Tornado may add 1 to their move.

• When rolling for initiative at the start of the round, add 2 to the roll for each common or unique figure your Superman is engaged with, and 4 to the roll for each Event Hero your Superman is engaged with.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #225  
Old July 24th, 2015, 11:31 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Some more of my thoughts:

- I personally prefer the marker system over the class-based system, but they play pretty much the same so that's a minor detail.

- With the marker system, people keep acting like it won't expand beyond the three suggested, but I don't think that's the case; we could start with just those three, but more could be added (I think a Superman III that inspires JLAers would be cool, and I could see a JLA version of Wonder Woman or Flash or Hal Jordan).

- Side note, but I've got bad news for any of those in the "no more new versions of existing characters" camp; they're going to happen. Multiple versions of the same character have been a big thing in C3G for awhile, and as time goes on and more characters get used up, it's only going to become more frequent. So I don't take much from the "this allows us to avoid more redesigns" argument; this may not be the time we do a Batman III or Martian Manhunter II, but I can assure you, it's going to happen eventually.

- I agree that there are two different camps forming here, though I wouldn't characterize them the way Bats does. I won't speak for the other camp, but I know I'm in the "Avengers Mirror" camp because I like the Avengers parallel and appreciate the simple innovativeness of the marker-based designs the public already put together; it accomplishes "wow!" in a very elegant way.

- I think you guys are misjudging how hard it will be to balance so many JLA Glyphs. Glyphs like that are easy to design but in a lot of ways harder to balance because they don't have a point cost. Sure, with Batman II it's worked out so far, but we've only done 7 of them, and in my opinion one of them is already not very draftable (First Aid Kit, for those interested). If you guys were saying we'd only do 6-9 glyphs, then yeah, that's not too hard; but when we're looking at ultimately getting to 20+ glyphs, it's going to be a nightmare to balance and will likely end up with some unbalanced ones.

- I also hesitate when adding synergy like you guys are suggesting via name reference, because that could get messy if we do more versions of those characters. If they reference specific powers, then it won't interact with future versions even if we want it to; and on the flip side, if it's a more general boost to that character it could restrict future design space. This isn't a big deal (existing synergies can already cause this), but it's worth considering.

I'm not against the JLA Glyph idea, if that's the direction we end up going I won't object (at least, not too much ); but I still strongly believe the Marker direction is better.

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  #226  
Old July 24th, 2015, 11:38 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Despite the number of ideas posted above (to show the possibilities of this) I don't think more than a small handful of the glyphs would come with the initial design (ala Batman 2.0) and they'd only be expanded on as the group wanted and as was appropriate with all of the considerations you mentioned, Viegon.

Edit: On a sidenote, if you (Viegon) are truly right about the inevitability of 2.0 versions of things, maybe the Class approach is the best one, with a unique Class for all of them (Justice Leaguer or League Member) and synergies playing off of that? That wouldn't be unlike the JSA approach as far as I remember.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #227  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:05 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viegon View Post
- I think you guys are misjudging how hard it will be to balance so many JLA Glyphs. Glyphs like that are easy to design but in a lot of ways harder to balance because they don't have a point cost. Sure, with Batman II it's worked out so far, but we've only done 7 of them, and in my opinion one of them is already not very draftable (First Aid Kit, for those interested). If you guys were saying we'd only do 6-9 glyphs, then yeah, that's not too hard; but when we're looking at ultimately getting to 20+ glyphs, it's going to be a nightmare to balance and will likely end up with some unbalanced ones.
I find it mind boggling that you would question Bats' perspective on what it takes to create content for C3G.

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  #228  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:29 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

No need for Hero-worship. I'm not at a higher level than any of you guys. This group is doing just fine without me.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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