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  #193  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:10 PM
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Re: Blegh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Having a class of "Justice League" or "Justice Leaguer" sounds so...weird to me. I'm not opposed to the idea on principle but you need to find a better name. Still I like markers better.

~Dysole, who thinks that they just called individual people League Members or something
Markers are fine too. It really makes 0 difference to me. It's more of a "hey, if markers are an issue for you, how about class instead?"

Regardless, I think the proper way to do this is to take what myself, Yoda, dok, and Bsbush designed...and add maybe 1 or 2 more new designs for characters in the League, and work everything in together. It'd have to be the right 1-2 other people, but I think it could bring everything to where it needs to be. It doesn't even have to be the main ones, I'd love to design a new Zatanna. The point would be to give them further powers with synergy in mind, and further push the use of the markers in new interesting ways.

Perhaps the key here, is to make each unit work differently with the markers. Sort of taking what Smithy suggested, but not making it the common thing they all have, but each marker plays by a different set of rules so to speak. We get 3-4 designs potentially giving out markers, with Batman II's glyph as well, and the new designs all have powers tied into them that are cohesive with each other. Like I said, that was always the selling point to me with our Martian Manhunter II, Cyborg II, and Batman Utility Glyph approach. The markers were all directly building off each other, and everything got better the more being used etc. The Avengers are so opposite of that. You pretty much grab 1 person(Cap), and you are given a static bonus throughout.
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  #194  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:22 PM
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Re: Blegh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Having a class of "Justice League" or "Justice Leaguer" sounds so...weird to me. I'm not opposed to the idea on principle but you need to find a better name. Still I like markers better.

~Dysole, who thinks that they just called individual people League Members or something
I'm pretty sure that was just a place holder for brainstorming purposes. I think you could give out Markers that, in addition to doing whatever it is you decide to do, also change their class to Champion, because they act as a team of Champions of their world, and even guy's who don't have the class of Champion by default i.e. Batman act more like Champions when working with the Justice League than when dealing with street level crime. Also a lot of the current Champions are Justice League members, and the only Champion synergy's are

Mongul - Who requires the figure to be chosen at the start of the game.

Cecil Stedman - Who requires the figure to be chosen at the start of the game and works with any figure, only giving an attack boost when you take a turn with the figure using his power if it's a Champion.

Allen the Alien - who offers an aditional attack die, but only when adjacent, and gains the same when he attacks Champions, making him a bit of a mind control risk.

Sif - who's power only works for one round after the Champion has died

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  #195  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:41 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

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Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
I'd say our best chance of success, is to find a way to make the markers work.

TrollBrute, Viegon, Karat, dok, Yodaking, quozl and myself. I think that's as close as we're going to get to any sort of majority agreement. As much as I like the idea of the individual glyphs, or the team card aspect, I feel it has a lot more detractors than supporters(Bats, Tornado, Spidey, Myself). I want this to work, and the only way that'll happen is if we can get on the same page, and focus on a solid direction. We need ideas towards a common goal, and if markers are what the majority want, than I'm willing to focus on it.

Now, with that said, I thought we had quite a compelling use of the the markers, that made them quite different than any current use of them. Having multiple people start with them, and each one contributing more and more to each power, making them all better, I thought, was quite an interesting route to take. So maybe we stick with that, but try and take it to a whole 'nother level? We could also bring 1 more design into it, to possibly set it over the edge of how much is being offered and how the whole thing comes together?
For the record my vote was for the Markers as well. If you really look into Karat said he wasn't against the Markers he thought it wasn't enough. So like I said earlier don't give up on the idea of Markers because you are almost there.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #196  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:45 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

That's fine. But we're going to need some new ideas for them, or ways to improve them. I'd also like 1 more design at play, something exotic that gives them even more flair. I feel like the idea of having them completely intertwined, and having them designed at the same time, all directly affecting each other, already makes it something special. It's a matter of putting the pieces in the right places.
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  #197  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:51 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Lets post up what we had and go from there trying to make something that can pass a Hero vote. If that means markers gets dropped for class changes then so be it. Maybe the synergy need to be even more impactful since Karat doesn't believe it went far enough.

As for other figures that might benefit from a JL themed 2.0 card, I noticed the Red Arrow's current card would never really be any good in a JL build as much like Cyborg his current powers work best with Titans and sidekicks. He does work with other archers but doubling up on Red & Green Arrow in one JL army seems unnecessary. It would be better to have a JL army where you could toss in either Red Arrow or Green Arrow for some ranged support but not both.
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  #198  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:47 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Just purely brainstorming here:

All the new designs are given the same class, we'll use Defender for this example. It makes for simpler wording when dealing with powers, it also means the new designs can start with the class, thus avoiding having to have a marker start on their card as well. Additionally, it'll cut off other class synergies in the process, which means it'll eliminate some potential nasty cross synergy combos from becoming abused. For example:

Martian Manhunter II:

JUSTICE LEAGUE MIND LINK
At the start of the game, choose 1 Unique Hero. The chosen Hero's Class is Defender, instead of what is listed on the card. All Defenders you control are considered within clear sight of each other. Martian Manhunter and any Defender you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Martian Manhunter, can never be taken control of by an enemy figure.

PRECOGNITIVE SENSES
When rolling for Initiative, you may add or subtract 1 to your roll for each Defender you control. Anytime a Defender would roll a 20-sided die for a special on their card, you may add 1 to the roll.

Cyborg II:

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the game, choose 1 Unique Hero. The chosen Hero's Class is Defender, instead of what is listed on the card. After revealing an Order Marker on this card, you may place one Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyborg. Before moving Cyborg, you may roll the 20-sided die for each unengaged Defender figure you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyborg, adding 1 to the roll for each Defender figure you control. If you roll a 14 or higher, you may move that figure up to 4 spaces. After moving Cyborg, immediately remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

Batman II Utility Glyph:

NAME = GLYPH OF UTILITY: JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICIAN
SUBTITLE = TURN MANAGEMENT

EQUIPMENT GLYPH

At the start of the game, choose 1 Unique Hero. Batman and the chosen Hero's Class is Defender, instead of what is listed on the card. After an opponent reveals an Order Marker, you may immediately move any unrevealed Order Markers on any Defender cards in your army to any other Defender cards you control. You may move Order Markers from Army Cards of your destroyed figures.

I say if we get 1 more design in there(Wonder Woman II could also be a Defender if TrollBrute wants in), you're looking at quite a different synergy than we currently have. I'd say the most interesting group to potentially pick from for a redesign would be:

Green Arrow
Zatanna
Dr. Fate
Hawkman

There's also first designs that have yet to be made that could carry the torch, which would make sense to a degree. Martian Manhunter for the original 7, Cyborg for the modern, and someone below(Zatanna and Fate work as well) to represent the years in between:

Power Girl
Captain Atom
Mr. Miracle
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  #199  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:20 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

I like Champion for the class, for reasons stated above.

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  #200  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:42 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Not to bounce around between things, but I still have desires for the Glyph idea.

Something I don't feel people are realizing is, is that there's not much difference between the glyph idea and marker idea in terms of how much synergy you're really getting. As in, both are offering quite a bit, just taking 2 different approaches.

With the Marker/Class system, you're choosing X amount of people, as determined by the amount we decide on for the card, to be tied into a synergy. The bonuses are coming from the designs we create, and they are required to be in the game in order to give said bonus to teammates.

With the Glyph system, you're choosing 3 people that you are drafting, to give bonuses to the rest of your team. So the argument of "we won't be able to design glyphs for every member" isn't really a good reason why it shouldn't happen. Because we also won't be able to make a new design for every member either, much less so to be exact. It'd be far easier to design a glyph that is essentially a specific unit offering up an enhanced version of a power they have, or an all new power altogether, with an overall balance in mind. That's far easier to manage each time, than an all new design, just to bring something new to the synergy.

The main difference here, is that Markers are static bonuses that you gain from the new designs that dish them out, and Glyphs are interchangeable based on who you draft, and those are the ones providing the synergy bonuses instead. Neither will be able to tackle every member out there, and neither limits your army to just consisting of Justice League members(you can mix and match in either).

It's just a matter of which would you rather have:

3 designs that offer the same thing every time, where you get to choose who they are supplementing.

OR

1 design that gives you 3 glyphs, that give you certain boosts from drafting those specific people, which feature options that could be expanded on as time goes on.

Which do you like more:

Markers/Class
Spoiler Alert!


OR

Glyphs
Spoiler Alert!


I'm not going to beat a dead horse. If markers/class is the best way to go, and nobody is going to warm up to the glyph idea, then I'll leave it up to Bats to try and sway people. I think the Glyph idea is not only new and fresh, it also has the most potential for an expansive synergy that works within the confines of the mechanics of the game(unlike the original team card idea), but is delivered in a unique way. Glyphs, and placing glyphs at the start of the game, even choosing which ones you want, aren't a foreign mechanic. You are essentially building what you want your synergy to be, and what powers/characters are being brought to the dance, rather than just who is receiving the same bonus each game. It offers more variety and creativity to the player. Think Apocalypse's Glyph choice, or Batman's, but instead you're choosing essentially between those who you drafted, which 3 characters are giving your team synergy. You mix and match what is best for your team. Nab yourself Zatanna and Aquaman, with Martian Manhunter's to boot. You've got a water space, additional Hand of the Waterbearer, and a d20 boost. It's just an example, and none are set in stone, but I just think that kind of team building sounds incredibly diverse. The powers/glyphs would be up to all of us to think up, balance, and synergize together for great combos.

But I also understand why some just don't see it, and want to stick to something more traditional. So I'm fine with either.
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  #201  
Old July 24th, 2015, 02:55 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Ugh. I have a lot of reading to do to catch up on this discussion
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  #202  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:15 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Just a follow up to that, because I think Bats has really started to get to me on this idea.

Here's the potential I see with the Glyph system:

One thing I absolutely need people to realize, is most synergies have certain characters that actually add to synergy for their category. Those people are static. What do I mean by static? Let's look at some examples:

Who boosts the Asgardians:
1.Odin
2.Heimdall
3.Asgardian Warrior
4.Balder

Who boosts the Green Lanterns:
1.Killiwog
2.Jade
3.Constructs

Who boosts the Avengers:
1.Cap
2.Ms. Marvel
3.Wasp II

Mutants:
1.Prof. X.
2.Sage
3.Apocalypse
4.Black King
5.Cyclops

Basically, when you play those respective synergies, and you want actual boosts/enhancements/synergy between them, you have to draft at least one of those figures, otherwise you are just playing a group of Asgardians or a group of Mutants etc. Synergy is when you have someone giving benefit to their team, because they have a link between cards that is offering more due to that link. That's obvious, but it is worth stating for clarity.

Now, let's take that into account for a second. If I am drafting Mutants, I'm almost guaranteed to get 1 of those "lynchpins" or "leaders" so to speak. Why? Because they make my army stronger. However. I'm limited in my options there on what bonuses I'm choosing to form my army around. Do I want the multiple turns with Prof X? Do I want the +1 to d20 and attack enhancement? These are the choices we have to make when forming our team. This is important.

This is exactly why the Glyph idea can really outshine any current option.

1. It's ever expansive.
-You aren't tied to having to make a whole new design, in order to expand the synergy options being offered. You just have to get a glyph passed. Each glyph contains 1 power. Each power must be within the balance of the rest, which is already factored into the unit's cost. This is far easier to design, and balance, than it is to get everyone on board with than 2nd or 3rd versions of several units.

2. It has more options when drafting.
-Do you need a lynchpin? Yes. You still need to draft the figure that starts with the glyphs. This is pretty mandatory in any synergy. However, where it changes is, you no longer have to plan your army with the same 3-4 units in mind, due to the bonus being offered by the ones that normally do in a synergy. In this scenario, if we have 5-10 figures with a glyph power being available to them, that allows more customization all around.

3. Your team is what you want it to be.
-Say you aren't playing with anyone with a d20 power. With this system, you just simply wouldn't choose Martian Manhunter's glyph that game, and instead, choose something more useful to you. We could also plan each power with other powers in mind. Much how Zatanna's could be 1 Water, Lava, Ice, or Shadow tile, which could be dependent on your army on whether that is the bonus you'd like to have - there's other characters that will have other character's powers in mind.

Say your team's greatest weakness is mobility. Draft Flash, Cyborg, and Red Tornado. You could have Flash carrying figures, a Boom Tube to play with, and Red Tornado increasing movement as well as moving figures he passes over.

Say your team wants Order Marker security, as well as Order Marker removing effectiveness. Get Batman's Order Marker movement, Wonder Woman's ability to see a lassoed figure's Order Markers, as well as someone who can remove Order Markers.

Say your team wants to lock down opponent's movement. Get Green Arrow, Wonder Woman, and Plastic Man. Green Arrow potentially stops their movement, Wonder Woman holds someone engaged, and Plastic Man may get something akin to Rubber Wrap. You wouldn't need Wonder Woman's glyph here, because Order Markers aren't your priority, so instead you get Green Arrow's glyph, Plastic Man's glyph, and Martian Manhunter's glyph to add to your d20 roll in order to help Green Arrow keep figures locked down.

Say your team drafts Ice on a non-ice map. Get Zatanna and throw down an Ice tile. No more having to draft Icicle just because you want Ice tiles! No more drafting Magma just because you want a Lava tile!

This is the point I'm trying to make. Versatility, Customization, and building thematic unique armies around the characters you want, without having to instead build characters around the same static bonus every time. With Cap, you're tempted to always draft those who can get the most from his +1 attack and +1 defense. With this Glyph system, you make the team you want to make, and choose what benefits go with the characters drafted. That's the difference. With synergies as they are, you are usually choosing characters to go with a specific unit's bonus, but with the Glyph system, you are choosing not only your characters, but the bonus powers that best suit the team you're running, or running up against.

That's where the Justice League shines right? The Justice League are individuals coming together for the greater good. So why not give them individual bonuses, to better represent how they team up between each other, and how different groups work better than certain others, all bringing a bit more to the table when so much is on the line? The Glyph powers give you that feeling, more-so than simply having specific powers always in play, no matter what team you run, or what is better suited for the characters in play etc.

Lastly, this is not a new system mechanic. This is taking what Apocalypse and Batman already do, and applying it to a new set of Glyphs. Instead of Utility, Equipment, or Infinity, you have Justice League member's powers at play. The powers must be chosen at the start of the game, just as the others are. This is nothing new to the game, but it's something new to tie a synergy around. But that's a good thing. It's not a Team Card that completely departs from how the game flows, or adding something completely foreign to the meta game. The Glyph powers are right in line with normal Glyph powers. Much like the Probability Manipulator allows the figure to re-roll once per attack/defense, these powers are aiding your team, except these powers are character thematic and specific, but balanced amongst the group.

Please try and give this some thought, before passing it off. All the powers would be discussed, brainstormed, and agreed upon just as if we were designing anything else. So there's going to be love put into each one, and ensured that each one adds a reason to play that character. Finally, these benefits will, and could, benefit other characters outside of the Justice League. So those who like their fantasy aspect, will still be just as able to do that here, as they could with other synergies. You could draft the Glyph hub character, a Justice League character and choose their glyph, and then get Iceman to benefit from that Ice tile. So there's still that fun factor there.

1 figure wouldn't have to be the only 1 to start with these glyphs, either. If you don't like the idea of having to choose Martian Manhunter II everytime to play the synergy, it's always possible Cyborg II could be designed to start with 2 Justice League Glyphs.

Hopefully this at least warms some up to why this idea has so much to it. Anyways, that's that.
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  #203  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:38 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

It is getting really hard to keep up with everything when post are so text heavy and things keep jumping around between so many different ideas. I'm not trying to stifle discussion here at all, but maybe we need to each just post one idea of how we could move forward and then let that idea sit and be discussed for a day before moving on to a new idea.

I'd like to discuss the current 'change a recruited figures class to champion' idea a bit more. It would give use a core group of several champions from which to build out from.

Current Champions:

Allen the Alien, Booster Gold, Captain Marvel (Billy Batson), Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell), Flash (Wally West), Hercules, Invincible, Omni-Man, Quasar (Phyla-Vell), Super-Skrull (Kl'rt), Super-Skrull (Rl'nnd), Superman (I), Superman (II), Thor, Wonder Woman

I don't see how a Batman utility glyph that changes people class would work though. What type of equipment would that be?

It also runs into a similar issue I had with the 1 JL marker per new card design, that is if the idea is that a new card would only recruit 1 other member to the league. You end up limiting the all DC JL team to some combination of Superman, WW, Booster Gold, Shazam, Wally West, MM2.0 + 1 other hero of your choice. If you give Cyborg 2.0 the same recruit 1 hero power, you are still fairly limited. It's not like you can run a Batman, Hawkgirl, Red Tornado, Green Lantern/Hal, Flash/Barry, Green Arrow, Black Canary JL army as none of them are Champions and you are already up to 1715 points. Even if MM 2.0 & Cyborg 2.0 were to combine for 685 points for a 2400 point army, only 4 of the 9 would be Champions (MM & Cyborg changing 1 each) for any JL Champion synergy. Now if MM 2.0 could recruit say 5 other Unique Heroes to become Champions you could build all kinds of different teams with only MM being the recurring unit. Cyborg 2.0 could then recruit 3 other Unique Heroes for a smaller line-up that used Cyborg 2.0, Superman, & WW plus 3 heroes of your choice without using MM 2.0.
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  #204  
Old July 24th, 2015, 03:44 AM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved. MM 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 both can have different JL synergy built into their cards such that they become one of the JL lynch pin units to decide between.
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