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  #181  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 09:39 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Okay, lot of confusion and misinformation going around here. I'm going to try to clear some of it up:
  • I keep seeing it said that the Hero vote for Martain Manhunter was "called", as if the vote was cut short. That's not what happened. All five Heroes were given ample time and voted. A majority decision was reached.
  • As to why the vote was held when it was, the speed of public designs dictates the speed of each voting round. However, there was some brief talk of a second slot being purchased, which forces my hand into making sure we have time for two rounds before the next design is needed. Timing with second slots is a massive headache.
  • It was not the idea of markers that was vetoed. It was Martian Manhunter's design at that time, for that round. I'm starting to wonder how many times I'll have to say that. It is possible that "nay" votes could be swayed with passionate arguments, or that further tweaking of that design could lead to it passing the vote.
  • Very minor, but Hero votes have a 48 hour limit, not 24. And that limit is often extended to make sure each Hero has ample time to consider his vote.

I will also say that patience is a virtue. I think I speak for all the Heroes when I say that we are each trying to make our positions and opinions clear. However, some of us have things that keep us away from Heroscapers and as such have not had much time to comment. For example, I had to work today, and then I had to spend forever catching up on the 10+ pages of this thread before I could comment. SirG has a lot of big stuff going on in his personal life right now, and likewise Karat has been very busy.

That said, the biggest voice against the design of Martian Manhunter was johnny, who has been very public about his opinions and is open to discussing ideas.

As for the poll (which is the second poll in 2 hours and is already behind 15+ replies, making this a very hard discussion to follow), I would vote B between those options. I'd rather not have to create a new glyph for each Hero we would like to add to the Justice League. I also liked some of the rough ideas for a team glyph or glyphs that were being tossed around (is that avenue not being discussed anymore?). Markers have always been my favorite option though and, for whatever it's worth, I voted "Yea" to MMII.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Someone said they did not want to create this huge new concept and then never apply it to another team but is that not exactly what was done with Galactus?
A whole new set of rules for one figure.
One figure so far. I have at least one design that plays on the groundwork set by Galactus.

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  #182  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 09:45 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

Thanks for the input.
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  #183  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 09:55 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollBrute View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Someone said they did not want to create this huge new concept and then never apply it to another team but is that not exactly what was done with Galactus?
A whole new set of rules for one figure.
One figure so far. I have at least one design that plays on the groundwork set by Galactus.
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  #184  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:03 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

First off, you guys seriously need to slow down a little, or find a way of separating the important points (questions to the Heroes, polls, etc.). I'm having a hard time keeping up myself; imagine how hard it's going to be for Karat and SirG who have a lot less 'Scape time right now (in short, pretty much impossible).

Also, make sure you read TB's latest post; there have been a lot of comments thrown around in this thread that were incorrect or misleading. To add to his post, for additional clarity, it was TB and I who voted for Martian Manhunter II, and Johnny, Karat, and SirGalahad that voted against. Johnny has stated his opinions, and Karat did too, though I think his posts got lost in the chaos. SirG hasn't even been on the site since this thread started yesterday, which is why he hasn't responded.

Following up on my suggestion above, how about making a second thread purely for voting and asking questions directed at the Heroes? We could leave this thread for the main discussion and brainstorming, but that way the important points don't get lost.

Now to some quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I still think Markers make the most sense. Yes, it will feel somewhat like the Avengers, but can be differentiated in plenty of ways. We can change how they are distributed, what bonuses they bring, and other things. What Sock put forward with those three designs doesn't have to be the final version by any stretch, but I think it illustrates how a team with markers can be done in a way that doesn't feel the same as the Avengers.

These are the two great superteams of those two publishing houses. The defining characteristic of each of them is that they contain the great heroes of their world, not that they contain a bunch of valiant vigilantes or somesuch. It feels 100% appropriate to me that they would have a superficially similar mechanic (involving markers). We are more than capable, as a group, of making two marker-based teams feel and play very differently.
and again; I completely agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Is this not the essence of the JL?
No, the essence of JL to me is the constant new members.
I agreee. Issue to Issue and episode to episode you may not see the exact same group back to back.
What I am proposing is an open ended system where you can continue to make additional cards to include each and every member of the JL.
Every time you play you can pick what ever members you want and each has their own benefits. You of course can also pick any other figure to add in but they do not get direct JL Team Card synergy because they were never part of the JL.
Tornado, do you realize how many JLAers there are? To design enough team cards/glyphs to include every JLAer ever would take us forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by twilkerson View Post
I'm representing a group of 10 Heroscape C3G players who meet twice a week. We would like to express our gratitude to all involved in the creative process and pay respect to the C3G leaders. You are Legends!

With that frame of reference, we would like to speak out against a move towards team cards or any other major changes to the base game. Many of our players left Heroclix because of similar changes in the game.

Thank you for all the hard work that you have done that has made C3G such a high quality game!
+1 would read again.

One man's "innovation" is another man's "major changes to the base game".
I also absolutely agree with this. It's different for each person, of course, but there's a point where innovation turns into a departure from the core of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
You of course can also pick any other figure to add in but they do not get direct JL Team Card synergy because they were never part of the JL.
That's the part I hate. FF4 can use adventurers and scientists that were never part of FF4. X-Men can use mutants that were never X-Men. Avengers can use any unique hero that was never an Avenger. Heck, even the Secret 6 can use outlaws that were never in the Secret 6. This is what I like about C3G.

JL teams need to be open-ended or it will not feel like C3G (or the JL) to me.
Another well-said comment I agree with. I know a lot of people (probably the majority) don't see C3G this way, but the point is that some do, and I think we should be careful not to alienate any group of players whenever possible.

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  #185  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:10 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

Well said, and thanks for the input.

Here's Karat's view on it, just so we have the Hero viewpoints so closely together:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karat View Post
One thing, is I feel the current MM alreasy fills the role of a JL leader. That's not to say I'm against a second MM; I'm just not convinced this is the route a second MM needs to take.

As to the markers, they work well and are mechanically sound, but I feel the lack a little umph. Something to make me want to play the JL over say the Avengers.

I really am just advocating a little more work on the faction synergy before he goes through voting. I truly believe he'll be a better design for it: sorry I haven't been more active in his design discussion so you would know how I felt earlier.

As to the whole universe restriction thing, for me, that breaks the mold of what C3G is and here's why. In my mind, the C3G universe is a universe where realities merge and fluctuate constantly, it's a large part of what makes it fun. I feel that restricting it according to publisher would alter this perception beyond recognizability. That's something I would personally like to keep in tact.

Oh and sock, or any of you designers or potential designers, feel free to message me with questions or if you would like me to look over the design. I've been through several rough designs and will help you to the best of my ability while still being supportive. I want innovative and creative designs and I think more of thar can be accomplished here.
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  #186  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:20 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

I'd say our best chance of success, is to find a way to make the markers work.

TrollBrute, Viegon, Karat, dok, Yodaking, quozl and myself. I think that's as close as we're going to get to any sort of majority agreement. As much as I like the idea of the individual glyphs, or the team card aspect, I feel it has a lot more detractors than supporters(Bats, Tornado, Spidey, Myself). I want this to work, and the only way that'll happen is if we can get on the same page, and focus on a solid direction. We need ideas towards a common goal, and if markers are what the majority want, than I'm willing to focus on it.

Now, with that said, I thought we had quite a compelling use of the the markers, that made them quite different than any current use of them. Having multiple people start with them, and each one contributing more and more to each power, making them all better, I thought, was quite an interesting route to take. So maybe we stick with that, but try and take it to a whole 'nother level? We could also bring 1 more design into it, to possibly set it over the edge of how much is being offered and how the whole thing comes together?
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  #187  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:41 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion **Heroes Need to Weigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
I'd say our best chance of success, is to find a way to make the markers work.

TrollBrute, Viegon, Karat, dok, Yodaking, quozl and myself. I think that's as close as we're going to get to any sort of majority agreement. As much as I like the idea of the individual glyphs, or the team card aspect, I feel it has a lot more detractors than supporters(Bats, Tornado, Spidey, Myself). I want this to work, and the only way that'll happen is if we can get on the same page, and focus on a solid direction. We need ideas towards a common goal, and if markers are what the majority want, than I'm willing to focus on it.

Now, with that said, I thought we had quite a compelling use of the the markers, that made them quite different than any current use of them. Having multiple people start with them, and each one contributing more and more to each power, making them all better, I thought, was quite an interesting route to take. So maybe we stick with that, but try and take it to a whole 'nother level? We could also bring 1 more design into it, to possibly set it over the edge of how much is being offered and how the whole thing comes together?
Something I posted back on the Public Design forum was creating a system of earning the markers, rather than just giving them out at the start of the game. Each big name JL member could have a way for them to get a member recruited into the league, based on performance during the game. This could vary from person to person, Wonder Woman might require the recruit to be engaged with X enemies (Bravery) Superman might have his recruit defeat a powerful figure (strength), Batman might reward dodges or blocks, taking no hits from an attack (agility and intelligence) but only on non-superstrength figures. And so on, with each member having a marker on themselves, and a small power to contribute to the group as a whole. That creates a new, and thematic way to include any sort of figure into the JLA, without overlapping too much with other marker powers.

Just a thought, since it looks like people are leaning away from the whole team card aspect.
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  #188  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:47 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

The issue I have with that is, I don't like that they have to be earned while the game is taking place. Synergy should be something you plan for, and something you use to your benefit in your approach before and during the battle. If the battle isn't going your way, or there's direct approaches you have to take just to get someone synergized with the rest of the group, you're now having to focus on that while still trying to maintain a focus on the immediate threats, and the overall game etc.

That's a lot to manage, and you'd have to repeat it every time just to receive those benefits.

I still think the most effective and interesting use of the markers, is to have them all tie in to each other, and the more of them in play, the better each power is getting by proxy. That's something, as far as I'm aware, that hasn't been done. No synergy has that much intertwined synergy throughout the members giving them out, as well as powers that are increasing the more you have etc.
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  #189  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:51 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
The issue I have with that is, I don't like that they have to be earned while the game is taking place. Synergy should be something you plan for, and something you use to your benefit in your approach before and during the battle. If the battle isn't going your way, or there's direct approaches you have to take just to get someone synergized with the rest of the group, you're now having to focus on that while still trying to maintain a focus on the immediate threats, and the overall game etc.

That's a lot to manage, and you'd have to repeat it every time just to receive those benefits.

I still think the most effective and interesting use of the markers, is to have them all tie in to each other, and the more of them in play, the better each power is getting by proxy. That's something, as far as I'm aware, that hasn't been done. No synergy has that much intertwined synergy throughout the members giving them out, as well as powers that are increasing the more you have etc.
It could be a simple trigger, and you could pick units that compliment the type of recruit you want. If superman needs a recruit to defeat a big enemy, than you draft a fast heavy hitter, and target a slower enemy, get the quick synergy, and now you have part of your JLA. In addition, each big name hero would have their own JL marker for their own use to synergize within the other JL members.
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  #190  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:53 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

I'm also going to re-bring up the possibility of changing classes rather than using markers. There's really no difference here, except 1 would require markers, whereas the other simply changes class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
JUSTICE LEAGUE RECRUITMENT
At the start of the game, you may choose 1 Unique Hero you control. For the entire game, their class is Justice League instead of what is listed on their card.

Then, you'd follow up with a power on Martian Manhunter's card, that directly gives bonus to Justice League members. These bonuses should all be minor, but specifically directed at aiding specific abilities other Justice League members have(some members may require more thought than others).

JUSTICE LEAGUE PRECOGNITION
When rolling for initiative, add 1 to your roll for each Justice League Hero you control. If a Justice League Hero you control rolls the 20-sided die for a special power, you may add 1 to the roll.

Then add on something that makes Martian Manhunter useful to anyone, not just Justice League units(just going off what I had as an example):

MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter, or any figure you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter. Figures you control are always considered in clear sight of each other.

If you do this with 4-5 cards, some or all with the Justice League recruitment, you're looking at a different synergy, that hasn't been done before. A synergy that not only was created all at once, knowing full well what the others were offering and bringing to the table, but a synergy that can be expanded to include others through the recruitment.
I know the idea of giving new "Justice League" versions of 4-5 designs isn't the prettiest option out there, but ultimately, I think it can result in something we can all appreciate in the end. You wouldn't need markers, instead, you're relying on the class system. The class of "Justice Leaguer" or whatever you want to use, could be given to the 4-5 new designs. Batman II could have a Utility Glyph that gives him the class. Then, some of the characters can recruit others, and change their class to match. Then it's all on the powers of the 4-5 new versions, to make this synergy more intertwined, tied together, and really fun. The powers would get better and better based on the number of "Justice Leaguers" being used.
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  #191  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 10:56 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred View Post
It could be a simple trigger, and you could pick units that compliment the type of recruit you want. If superman needs a recruit to defeat a big enemy, than you draft a fast heavy hitter, and target a slower enemy, get the quick synergy, and now you have part of your JLA. In addition, each big name hero would have their own JL marker for their own use to synergize within the other JL members.
That's the hard sell for me though. If Superman needs someone to defeat a big enemy, that means you aren't receiving benefits until well into the game. It also means certain weaker units, who could use the synergy the most, are highly unlikely to obtain that recruitment. I love the idea and theme, but the execution makes me feel like it'd be a tough sell. Why would I want to play a team where that synergy may not even come at all, or be unreachable for certain figures, or the figure is half dead before they even start benefiting etc.
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  #192  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 11:01 PM
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Having a class of "Justice League" or "Justice Leaguer" sounds so...weird to me. I'm not opposed to the idea on principle but you need to find a better name. Still I like markers better.

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