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  #121  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:47 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Is this not the essence of the JL?
No, the essence of JL to me is the constant new members.
I agreee. Issue to Issue and episode to episode you may not see the exact same group back to back.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #122  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:49 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

I still think Markers make the most sense. Yes, it will feel somewhat like the Avengers, but can be differentiated in plenty of ways. We can change how they are distributed, what bonuses they bring, and other things. What Sock put forward with those three designs doesn't have to be the final version by any stretch, but I think it illustrates how a team with markers can be done in a way that doesn't feel the same as the Avengers.

These are the two great superteams of those two publishing houses. The defining characteristic of each of them is that they contain the great heroes of their world, not that they contain a bunch of valiant vigilantes or somesuch. It feels 100% appropriate to me that they would have a superficially similar mechanic (involving markers). We are more than capable, as a group, of making two marker-based teams feel and play very differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
It would be best represented by JL markers.
Heh, of course I'm not going to argue the marker system by any means. But unless 3 people have a sudden change of heart(a couple days late...), I'd rather not try to save a sunken ship, rather find a new ship.
I think you're writing it off too soon. I don't think it's sunk. I actually think the heroes made the right decision to pump the brakes on MM2 being a public design even though I like that direction. There was a lot going on there, and a lot of interdependency between the designs, and I think trying to jump into a MM2 design in the next week or two would be cutting off this current discussion (which is a good discussion that should happen) a little short.

TL;DR - I don't believe the concept of JL markers, per se, has been vetoed. If I am wrong, then someone who knows should probably say so. But I don't think I am wrong.

As I suggested before, if there are concerns about stacking Avengers markers with JL markers, or indeed with Masters of Evil markers, then I suggest Avenger, JL, Masters of Evil, and Horseman of the Apocalypse markers all be classed as "team markers" and we just put in a rule that you cannot place multiple team markers on a card. Frankly, I have my doubts that this is really necessary, but it's certainly justified in theme.

Last edited by dok; July 23rd, 2015 at 04:48 PM.
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  #123  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:50 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Is this not the essence of the JL?
No, the essence of JL to me is the constant new members.
I agreee. Issue to Issue and episode to episode you may not see the exact same group back to back.
Right. I completely get this and understand it. However, I'm still not seeing why the Team Card route is not capturing this. If we have a list of 10-15 prominent JL members to choose from, and the ability to draft anyone off the list as well, they just aren't offering the unique bonuses for being drafted(this is common amongst synergies), that's all the options you'd need for an ever rotating team.
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  #124  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:50 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

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Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
I know I've been coming off as negative and antagonistic, but that's only because this has been going a mile a minute and I barely have time to form a complete thought before something new comes up.

My stance is that dozens of teams have been created, without resorting to creating a team card. X-Men, Secret Six, Suicide Squad with Waller coming soon, Thanagarians, Skrull, Kree, etc. The difference between them, and the Justice League is that they all had a common trait, I.e. species, class, etc.

The biggest difference between the Avengers, and the Justice League, and all other teams is that they're both teams made up of the imprint's best selling characters strongest players in their universe, but that lead to crazy diversity between the members. Both teams are their universe's greatest Heroes, coming together to face the challenges that they could never conquer on their own.

Say what you will about the Avengers, but they started as just as much a team of individuals as the Justice League, their roster has just replaced more members than the Justice League. C3G however, chose to begin their representation by using the main constant on the team as the cornerstone, and giving him enough Markers to fill in the rest of the original 5 members (I think you all know I'm talking about Captain America). To me, it's an Injustice to chose not to represent DC's in a similar way, solely because their alternate universe counterpart already did it. I still stand by the completely open/ Marker system synergy, and class or personality based synergy from the original Justice League lineup as a second option.

Radical isn't always best, and while this may be the most radical change seen to date, I and several others don't believe this to be the best. This is a community driven project, and decisions should be based on what the most people want, not what the people who post most want.
Much better thank you for understanding. I think there are several people who probably agree. I don't think the discussion on the marker system should just go away completely. People can change their mind if they decide the other proposed solutions are not any better.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #125  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:53 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I still think Markers make the most sense. Yes, it will feel somewhat like the Avengers, but can be differentiated in plenty of ways. We can change how they are distributed, what bonuses they bring, and other things. What Sock put forward with those three designs doesn't have to be the final version by any stretch, but I think it illustrates how a team with markers can be done in a way that doesn't feel the same as the Avengers.

These are the two great superteams of those two publishing houses. The defining characteristic of each of them is that they contain the great heroes of their world, not that they contain a bunch of valiant vigilantes or somesuch. It feels 100% appropriate to me that they would have a superficially similar mechanic (markers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
It would be best represented by JL markers.
Heh, of course I'm not going to argue the marker system by any means. But unless 3 people have a sudden change of heart(a couple days late...), I'd rather not try to save a sunken ship, rather find a new ship.
I think you're writing it off too soon. I don't think it's sunk. I actually think the heroes made the right decision to pump the brakes on MM2 being a public design even though I like that direction. There was a lot going on there, and a lot of interdependency between the designs, and I think trying to jump into a MM2 design in the next week or two would be cutting off this current discussion, which should happen, a little short.

In short, I don't believe the concept of JL markers, per se, has been vetoed. If I am wrong, then someone who knows should probably say so. But I don't think I am wrong.

As I suggested before, if there are concerns about stacking Avengers markers with JL markers, or indeed with Masters of Evil markers, then I suggest Avenger, JL, Masters of Evil, and Horseman of the Apocalypse markers all be classed as "team markers" and we just put in a rule that you cannot place multiple team markers on a card. Frankly, I have my doubts that this is really necessary, but it's certainly justified in theme.
Yeah just skip what I wrote and read this...it's what I was trying to get across...Don't drop the marker idea completely Sock.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #126  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:54 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
I'm not trying to spit in anyone's face. It was mostly supposed to be a comment about how crazy fast this is going. It's hard to post an unpopular opinion really fast without coming off as a jerk.
Nobody had a problem with an unpopular opinion. This thread is filled with contrasting desires and all that comes with them. The point is, your posts were merely "I don't like this", when it should have included why you don't like it, what you'd prefer, and why you'd prefer it. That's contributing. We're trying to take everything into account, but simply stating you don't like something does not help us reach the goal, because it gives us no real feedback to work with.
Once again, I wish I had the typing speed to keep up with you, and share all of my thoughts on each idea that comes up, but it always seems like a new one comes up before I can make a statement on an old one that's become irrelevant.

Quote:
This is a discussion forum, and we're discussing. If we had to wait for everyone to read and react to everything presented, you're looking at a year before anything is accomplished. Weigh in when you can, but the ideas should still keep progressing. This is a brainstorming session.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
Edit: also, since the Heroes had a vote on the Marker based Martian Manhunter design, why haven't they voted on this? No offense intended if a vote is being taken BTW Heroes.

They have been chiming in with their thoughts, and what approaches they like and dislike etc. That says already which stand by what. However, we're always encouraging more input from their side, because it's clear that without their contribution, we're not going to win any vote.
True. Still a vote would be more definitive than just opinions, and not all have chimed in. It's not necessary for me though, I was just throwing out a thought I had at the moment.

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  #127  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:54 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

I'm representing a group of 10 Heroscape C3G players who meet twice a week. We would like to express our gratitude to all involved in the creative process and pay respect to the C3G leaders. You are Legends!

With that frame of reference, we would like to speak out against a move towards team cards or any other major changes to the base game. Many of our players left Heroclix because of similar changes in the game.

Thank you for all the hard work that you have done that has made C3G such a high quality game!
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  #128  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:58 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Is this not the essence of the JL?
No, the essence of JL to me is the constant new members.
I agreee. Issue to Issue and episode to episode you may not see the exact same group back to back.
What I am proposing is an open ended system where you can continue to make additional cards to include each and every member of the JL.
Every time you play you can pick what ever members you want and each has their own benefits. You of course can also pick any other figure to add in but they do not get direct JL Team Card synergy because they were never part of the JL.

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  #129  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 02:59 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twilkerson View Post
I'm representing a group of 10 Heroscape C3G players who meet twice a week. We would like to express our gratitude to all involved in the creative process and pay respect to the C3G leaders. You are Legends!

With that frame of reference, we would like to speak out against a move towards team cards or any other major changes to the base game. Many of our players left Heroclix because of similar changes in the game.

Thank you for all the hard work that you have done that has made C3G such a high quality game!
+1 would read again.

One man's "innovation" is another man's "major changes to the base game".
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  #130  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 03:00 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I don't think it's sunk. I actually think the heroes made the right decision to pump the brakes on MM2 being a public design even though I like that direction. There was a lot going on there, and a lot of interdependency between the designs, and I think trying to jump into a MM2 design in the next week or two would be cutting off this current discussion, which should happen, a little short.

In short, I don't believe the concept of JL markers, per se, has been vetoed. If I am wrong, then someone who knows should probably say so. But I don't think I am wrong.
See, judging by how long voting sessions take and how long it'll be before the winning design actually gets started, we could be looking at 1-2 months still. So I don't think a pump of the brakes were needed. Public Designs aren't exactly pumped out like rapid fire. Although Firestorm is 2 tests away, that means 2 other people actually have to step up and get them done, which usually takes a week or 2. Then the final editing, then the art department etc. These take time. We would have had plenty of time to get all our ducks in a row at the rate we were going.

Regardless, I'm not going to belabor a point that clearly is irreversible.

As for the markers being the biggest sticking point? All I know is Johnny said when we first started discussing all of this 3+ weeks ago:
Spoiler Alert!

So I'm not sure what it'll take, but the markers seem like a huge sticking point. I suggested we simply replace the markers with the change of the class to Justice Leaguer or whatever, and you get the same results just without the markers.
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  #131  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 03:02 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Twilkerson actually told me that he thought me and Johnny were the only ones speaking out about the opinion that a team card is not the right move/too heroclixey, and encouraged me to keep rocking on. I of course said that he should speak up aswell, (every voice counts, community driven project. Yada yada) and am glad he did so. I decided to raise my voice because of this guy, and his group of friends I've never even met, and I think that's pretty awesome!

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  #132  
Old July 23rd, 2015, 03:06 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
You of course can also pick any other figure to add in but they do not get direct JL Team Card synergy because they were never part of the JL.
That's the part I hate. FF4 can use adventurers and scientists that were never part of FF4. X-Men can use mutants that were never X-Men. Avengers can use any unique hero that was never an Avenger. Heck, even the Secret 6 can use outlaws that were never in the Secret 6. This is what I like about C3G.

JL teams need to be open-ended or it will not feel like C3G (or the JL) to me.

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