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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #25  
Old January 16th, 2014, 01:28 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

There's definitely weirdness in a Mephisto mirror match. Do we want to specify that it's a Deal Marker from this card, or is it OK for either Mephisto to cash out the other Mephisto's deals?

Then, there's the other powers that place figures after destruction. We have some established protocols for these. There's basically two cases.

The first case is when the power that triggers is also from a card in your army. This happens in a couple cases:
  1. If you have Ragman and Mephisto in the same army, and a Unique Hero is destroyed in range of both of them.
  2. If an Orange Lantern/Orange Construct you control destroys a Unique Hero in Mephisto's clear sight.
In these cases, you decide which power triggers first. If you choose to roll for DwtD, and miss the roll, you can then trigger the other power.

The second case is when it's an opponent's card that has the other power. I see three such cases:
  1. If a Unique Hero in Mephisto's army destroys a Unique Hero in Ghost Rider's army
  2. If Judge Death is destroyed by Mephisto's army
  3. If Gorilla-Man is destroyed by a common/unique hero in Mephisto's army
In these cases, there is a dice-off. The winner gets to use their power first. If Mephisto wins the dice-off but then fails the roll for DwtD, the opponent can then use their power.
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  #26  
Old January 16th, 2014, 02:18 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Love having Contact work when you receive wounds as opposed to working if your destroyed. Also I agree it should say a marker from this card, I didn't think of mirroring.
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  #27  
Old January 16th, 2014, 02:19 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Great analysis, dok!

Not sure where I stand on Mephisto using another Mephisto's markers in a mirror match .... It seems more fair/cleaner for them to each only use their own, but also harder to track. What do folks think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Thematically, why is the figure returned to its start zone? Why doesn't it just stay where it is?
They're being given a "second chance" at making a go of things. Basically Mephisto is re-writing reality a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
When I suggested making the one roll automatic I was overlooking the fact that he still got to take a turn too. I was reading it as an 'instead of' power so you can ignore that suggestion.

As far as the 'deal' roll, I seem to recall a much earlier discussion that some 'souls' were strong enough to resists his powers, which is why a roll was incorporated. I prefer it not being automatic.

In general, I think some testing will give us a better idea of how it all plays out in a game setting. Lots of different things going on with this design that might not work as we imagine them to. I'd advocate for some casual pre-initial/public testing for this design just so we can better gauge the design mechanics without fully committing to moving forward with this exact power set.
Good analysis. I agree. Especially with the bolded.

I'd volunteer to do some if I weren't still in a different state than my Scape.

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  #28  
Old January 16th, 2014, 02:46 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Same with me. I won't be of much use on the testing front for a while.
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  #29  
Old January 17th, 2014, 04:33 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

OK, I gave him a test run. I played Blood Contract as whenever he takes a wound instead of destroyed. Everything else is as in the SP.

Mephisto & Green Arrow(150) vs. Kraven, Scorpion, & Grey Gargoyle.

Winner: GA (full), Mephisto (11 wounds, 2 Life left)

The change to Blood Contract makes for some interesting decisions and strategies. You have to decide if the wounds you are taking are worth breaking a Deal over. Mephisto first made a Deal with Kraven who immediately wounded Mephisto for 3 wounds. Now I could have given those to Kraven but the Deal would have been broken without ever using Time to Collect.

So I decided I would keep taking wounds until I absolutely had to use Blood Contract to protect Mephisto. The dice were hot for Mephisto, outside of missing two TtC rolls. He was dealing skulls but was getting worn down.
At one point Mephisto had 9 wounds and the other team is at full strength though he has a Deal with both Kraven and Scorpion.
And there lies the crux with Deal with the Devil. Yes you have fairly strong mind control but they also have free will and all their Life. You really want to transfer at least 3 wounds from Blood Contract or you are leaving them too strong and no longer bonded by the Deal.
I think 4 Life Heroes will be prime Targets as you will have a better chance of destroying them with Blood Contract and then not have to worry about them. High Life figures and especially healers will be a bit riskier. I think Sabertooth would not be a great choice, as you may not be able to kill him again.

So back to the game. I was not sure how to handle the situation. I decided to send Mephisto after Grey Gargoyle but not to make a Deal. I was worried I might be forced to release him after taking a single wound, leaving him too strong to defeat. Mephisto gets lucky, he uses Scorpion to inflict 3 wounds on Kraven who then attacks Mephisto doing 3 wounds. Mephisto transfers the wounds with Blood Contract and destroys Kraven.
After that it was a simple matter to move Scorpion to low ground and lucky enough rolls 6 out of 7 skulls, causing 4 wounds to Scorpion, it was over then.

Overall Mephisto is fun to play if you like strategy and decisions. Choosing your victims for Deal with the Devil and when to use Blood Contract is critical. In hindsight, I think I should have not made a deal with Kraven and instead made one with Grey Gargoyle as GG has one less life than Kraven. I really questioned if he was worth even 350 at one point. Having to re-destroy figures almost felt like more of a curse to Mephisto when he had 9 wounds and his enemies had none.
I would stick with the power set with the change to Blood Contract and do some heavy playtesting. I know my match could have been a lot closer if it were not for the hot/lucky dice. Nice design.
Spoiler Alert!

A cloud can change its semblance, yet retain its will
With the intimacy of destruction, One knows what it is to be alive
The empty sky holds no reflection, for sorrow
- Eslo Rudkey

Last edited by Tornado; January 17th, 2014 at 04:48 PM.
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  #30  
Old January 17th, 2014, 04:52 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
OK, I gave him a test run. I played Blood Contract as whenever he takes a wound instead of destroyed. Everything else is as in the SP.

Mephisto & Green Arrow(150) vs. Kraven, Scorpion, & Grey Gargoyle.

Winner: GA (full), Mephisto (11 wounds, 2 Life left)

The change to Blood Contract makes for some interesting decisions and strategies. You have to decide if the wounds you are taking are worth breaking a Deal over. Mephisto first made a Deal with Kraven who immediately wounded Mephisto for 3 wounds. Now I could have given those to Kraven but the Deal would have been broken without ever using Time to Collect.

So I decided I would keep taking wounds until I absolutely had to use Blood Contract to protect Mephisto. The dice were hot for Mephisto, outside of missing two TtC rolls. He was dealing skulls but was getting worn down.
At one point Mephisto had 9 wounds and the other team is at full strength though he has a Deal with both Kraven and Scorpion.
And there lies the crux with Deal with the Devil. Yes you have fairly strong mind control but they also have free will and all their Life. You really want to transfer at least 3 wounds from Blood Contract or you are leaving them too strong and no longer bonded by the Deal.
I think 4 Life Heroes will be prime Targets as you will have a better chance of destroying them with Blood Contract and then not have to worry about them. High Life figures and especially healers will be a bit riskier. I think Sabertooth would not be a great choice, as you may not be able to kill him again.

So back to the game. I was not sure how to handle the situation. I decided to send Mephisto after Grey Gargoyle but not to make a Deal. I was worried I might be forced to release him after taking a single wound, leaving him too strong to defeat. Mephisto gets lucky, he uses Scorpion to inflict 3 wounds on Kraven who then attacks Mephisto doing 3 wounds. Mephisto transfers the wounds with Blood Contract and destroys Kraven.
After that it was a simple matter to move Scorpion to low ground and lucky enough rolls 6 out of 7 skulls, causing 4 wounds to Scorpion, it was over then.

Overall Mephisto is fun to play if you like strategy and decisions. Choosing your victims for Deal with the Devil and when to use Blood Contract is critical. In hindsight, I think I should have not made a deal with Kraven and instead made one with Grey Gargoyle as GG has one less life than Kraven. I really questioned if he was worth even 350 at one point. Having to re-destroy figures almost felt like more of a curse to Mephisto when he had 9 wounds and his enemies had none.
I would stick with the power set with the change to Blood Contract and do some heavy playtesting. I know my match could have been a lot closer if it were not for the hot/lucky dice.
Spoiler Alert!
Nice job. Good to see the whole match still ended in 4 rounds even with 2 figures being returned to life. Looks like GA was really only used as the opening move and then left out of the fight. Is that correct?
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  #31  
Old January 17th, 2014, 04:56 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Yes. I thought he may have to finish off the opposition but Mephisto's hot dice proved fatal. GA got lucky defending. I sent Grey Gargoyle after him early and missed two or three times.

A cloud can change its semblance, yet retain its will
With the intimacy of destruction, One knows what it is to be alive
The empty sky holds no reflection, for sorrow
- Eslo Rudkey
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  #32  
Old January 17th, 2014, 10:35 PM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Sounds like it might be reasonable (though this is obviously based on very limited testing) to try him about 100-150 points higher for the initial, but it also sounds like the design as is is working really well (and is fun)! Good stuff.

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DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #33  
Old January 18th, 2014, 01:03 AM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Ok I tried him out and I thought he was lethal. I made him though for big fights, you want to have guys go out and take down your opponent's figures and then make them deals. Then you just keep using them to take out your opponent's other figures. I had a army of Mephisto, Etrigan, Spawn, Venom (C3G), Sage, and a squad of Fire Demons. I wanted to test some theories made about Mephisto and high life figures and Sabretooth's healing. So, I had them go against Superman, Zauriel, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Spider-man (C3G), and Hawkeye II. I had Sage so I was able to move OM's as needed. when someone got to Mephisto Spawn pulled them off with chain grab. The first to go down and take a deal strangely enough was the angel Zauriel. Then I had her just attack her team mates in my opponents start zone, mainly Sabretooth. Superman kept on Mephisto and Spawn had to keep pulling him off. Superman ended up being the second to take a deal, and was responsible for taking out Wolverine. However he kept running for Mephisto and hitting him so finally Mephisto had him jump in a lava pool and commit suicide. Zauriel eventually ended up taking down Sabretooth. If you want I have the entire test written up and can post it.
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  #34  
Old January 18th, 2014, 01:32 AM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Which side won and what was the margin of victory?

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  #35  
Old January 18th, 2014, 01:35 AM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Which side won and what was the margin of victory?
Oh, yea duh, that would probably be a good thing to post. I won here were the survivors:
Mephisto 7 wounds, Venom 0 wounds, Sage 0 wounds, Fire Demons 4 units
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  #36  
Old January 18th, 2014, 01:36 AM
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Re: The Book Of Mephisto - Design Phase

Yeah, I think we should try him at like 600 for the initial. That power level works thematically, though, IMO. Does it work for you, DR?

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