Horizon in Sight: Dan's Tale

[TheAverageFan]

I am in the process of catching up and will likely have done so by the time you resume posting. I'll leave my thoughts upon completion.

~TAF, always trailing behind

[TheAverageFan]

I am once again caught up and am glad to see my favorite character Francois returning for the remake. I am curious to see how the story goes, especially from the shifting balance of having very few characters to having a lot fo them. There are, what, 10 named characters in the party? That's a lot to balance.

I will say one of the qualities of this retelling is that while being very similar to the original, it is also different enough that I have no idea where it is going or how it will end, keeping prior readers invested.

~TAF

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

I am once again caught up and am glad to see my favorite character Francois returning for the remake. I am curious to see how the story goes, especially from the shifting balance of having very few characters to having a lot fo them. There are, what, 10 named characters in the party? That's a lot to balance.

I will say one of the qualities of this retelling is that while being very similar to the original, it is also different enough that I have no idea where it is going or how it will end, keeping prior readers invested.

~TAF

One of my regrets is that I did not include as many of the original companions as I wanted. I started developing side characters, and before I knew it, everyone was a human. Ah well. I'm glad your favorite character found a place in the tale, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how the balancing act is going, since this is the first time I've really dealt with side characters on a mentionable level. Things only get thicker from here.



But now, onward with the posting. We have Chapter Forty-Two - Dissension, quickly followed by Chapter Forty-Three - Decision. Not to be confused by the similar titles. Chapter 43 is one I was really looking forward to writing, as it adds even more character development into the already-full mire of private agendas going on.



~TGRF.

[TGRF]

And now we have Chapter Forty-Four - Attack, one of the longer chapters. After this, we have three chapters left until the fourth and final part of Dan's tale. Get ready!



~TGRF.

[TGRF]

Chapter Forty-Five - Healing is now live! As the company recovers and prepares to do what they came here for, hope fades quickly, and despair threatens to engulf them all. How will they be able to fight the resistance they are sure to face?



Also, there are several breaks in the chapters, extra lines between paragraphs indicating pauses or passages of time. Unfortunately, these do not get copied over during posting. There isn't much I can do about it, so for now, a few transitions will seem a bit choppy. I'll use other separators in the future.



~TGRF.

[William099]

Thanks! Sorry I haven't been around. Master's degree comes with a lot of homework.

[TheAverageFan]

I'm still catching up. I'll let you know my thoughts as I go.

~TAF

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

I'm still catching up. I'll let you know my thoughts as I go.

~TAF

Looking forward to it.


~TGRF.

[TGRF]

Just FYI, there was a problem with the website which prevented it from being accessed. The problem has now been fixed, and the website is back. So if anyone had stopped reading because of that, you can now continue at your leisure.



Also, I am considering writing a short sequel to this tale. I want to test some new writing methods out, and while I was intending to do so with BaoP, a sequel to HiS is better suited. It's short, not full of additional side plots I'd also have to develop, and it's the perfect scenario for the testing I have in mind.



There might be some differences in style, including either multiple PoVs OR a more omniscient narrator, and along with that, no internal dialogue of characters' thoughts. I'm trying to see if I can convey clearly where characters stand without outright saying it (and thus rehashing it all the time).



I'll keep you posted.



~TGRF.

[TheAverageFan]

Okie-dokie; so I am finally caught up and finished and have my thoughts in order.

First of all: I'd like to rate this fiction as a 8/10.

All of my other thoughts require spoilers tags:

Spoiler Alert!

So I overall enjoyed the story and thought it was a pretty quick read for 61 chapters. I mostly read it in large chucks rather than a-chapter-a-day, so having it be pretty quick even with that in mind is a good thing.

Now I have 3 main criticisms of the overall story (not really counting the first part on Isadora which felt like a completely separate fiction (you already know my criticisms of that part)) which I will convey below:

#1: Take a shot every time the word Horizon is used; double shots if it was used in the last 10 chapters

#2: There is a trend in TV-writing, typically considered a bad one, where as soon as a minor character suddenly develops or shows a side of humanity previously unseen, you know that character is about to die (I believe it's called Walking Dead Syndrome). I felt a little bit of this in HiS, where almost every side character in Dan's group dies pretty shortly after completing their character arc or becoming fully developed. They usually impart what they've learned or taught as they die--it happens back-to-back with Gideon and Laelia. I began to anticipate it after awhile, which did make it seem more... silly.

The only character that seemed to escape this was Jaseff, which is probably why he was my favorite side character in this story. The only other party member that survives to my recollection is Francois, who didn't really seem to have an arc. I also liked Ana as she had a couple little subplots, and didn't die for a while even after those were wrapped up.

#3: Dan has the same problem as Indy in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where he could be removed from the Valhalla story and nothing would have changed. If he hadn't been there the group still would have made it to the cave, Otonashi still would've stolen the amulet, Utgar still would've killed Einar, and Vydar still would've killed Utgar. There'd be a few minor differences like Takuya would've lived, and perhaps a few of the main party would have died earlier, but all of the big picture stuff would remain unchanged.

Really the group as a whole is pretty irrelevant to the main story, as Otonashi was the only one to actually accomplish the mission. None of the other characters really turn the tide of the events afterwards in any meaningful way. You look at Lord of the Rings and try to remove any character from the Fellowship (perhaps save for Legolas and Gimli), and the whole thing falls apart and Sauron wins. But this is kind of an irrelevant criticism since the good guys don't win in the big picture: Vydar does. The main characters can't quite turn any tide because they don't want Vydar to win. And it's the journey not the destination.

The main contribution Dan feels he has to his story is helping others find their horizons, but as I've stated all but one of the people he helps wind up dead in a ditch shortly after finding their horizon. And I suppose he accidentally distracts the Valkyrie at the end. You could argue that's how he helps Vydar win, however unintentionally. Ah, whatever.

---

Because of the ramping nature of the story, where things were super-slow in the beginning and super-fast towards the ending, a lot of these criticisms could be felt in clusters towards the end. And because of that I was poised not to like the ending chapters very much as they felt very rushed. I hope Vydar is telling the truth when he says he'll accept responsibility for his actions, because otherwise he basically goes unpunished by Dan for explicitly betraying the main group even though he didn't have to, directly resulting in the deaths of Kaori and Sharwin. Everybody's just like, "Well, you may have killed 40% of Valhalla, but you seem like a nice dude, personally. He may be a bad guy but he's not a bad guy." The Valhalla story arc ends very abruptly, is what I'm saying.

Now you might be thinking that I'm complaining a lot. And you'd be right. The point of this all is I will say that most of my good will was restored in Ch. 61, which was probably the best chapter in the entire story and completely used criticism #3 to its advantage. It made what could be seen as an extremely unsatisfying character ending into an extremely satisfying story ending, and did the impossible--make me glad to see Dan back in his cell again. I shouldn't like seeing Dan immediately lose his gloves and end up back in jail after all he's done and learned in Valhalla. I should want to see him use all his experience and tech to smash his way through that place like an Oldboy Hallway fight scene.

But somehow this was more satisfying. It made everything on Valhalla relevant to Dan's resolution on Isadora: the character stuff, not the tech. It also made the relationship between Dan and Heleer much more complex and impactful. What Dan's willing to do for her, and his faith in her, knowing it will lead them both to the horizon rather than him dragging her along made his attachment to her much more genuine and (dare I say it) romantic. Truly a man's man. It washed away all my earlier criticisms of hating that cell and thinking Dan was a dum-dum, and made me glad to see him back there. My only real complaint about 61 was not getting to see his actual reunion with Heleer, but hey what are already-confirmed sequels for? I now very much look forward to seeing these unexplored things, perhaps meeting Darren again, getting to see Heleer's Point of View, finding out who Dan's parents are, finding out who cuts their hair, and so on.

Overall it was a truly superb piece of writing, and a perfect ending for the story that made me forgive almost everything I didn't like about it. It did anything but "fail to deliver". Give me an editor's pen and I'd basically change nothing about it. Very impressive for only a few paragraphs, especially since it was delivered in a way I didn't think I'd like.

I suppose you could even say it... subverted my expectations?

...

I have to go wash my mouth out now.

As usual I have no shortage of complaints, but I complain about things because I love them. <3

~TAF

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by TheAverageFan

Okie-dokie; so I am finally caught up and finished and have my thoughts in order.

First of all: I'd like to rate this fiction as a 8/10.

All of my other thoughts require spoilers tags:

Spoiler Alert!

So I overall enjoyed the story and thought it was a pretty quick read for 61 chapters. I mostly read it in large chucks rather than a-chapter-a-day, so having it be pretty quick even with that in mind is a good thing.

Now I have 3 main criticisms of the overall story (not really counting the first part on Isadora which felt like a completely separate fiction (you already know my criticisms of that part)) which I will convey below:

#1: Take a shot every time the word Horizon is used; double shots if it was used in the last 10 chapters

#2: There is a trend in TV-writing, typically considered a bad one, where as soon as a minor character suddenly develops or shows a side of humanity previously unseen, you know that character is about to die (I believe it's called Walking Dead Syndrome). I felt a little bit of this in HiS, where almost every side character in Dan's group dies pretty shortly after completing their character arc or becoming fully developed. They usually impart what they've learned or taught as they die--it happens back-to-back with Gideon and Laelia. I began to anticipate it after awhile, which did make it seem more... silly.

The only character that seemed to escape this was Jaseff, which is probably why he was my favorite side character in this story. The only other party member that survives to my recollection is Francois, who didn't really seem to have an arc. I also liked Ana as she had a couple little subplots, and didn't die for a while even after those were wrapped up.

#3: Dan has the same problem as Indy in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where he could be removed from the Valhalla story and nothing would have changed. If he hadn't been there the group still would have made it to the cave, Otonashi still would've stolen the amulet, Utgar still would've killed Einar, and Vydar still would've killed Utgar. There'd be a few minor differences like Takuya would've lived, and perhaps a few of the main party would have died earlier, but all of the big picture stuff would remain unchanged.

Really the group as a whole is pretty irrelevant to the main story, as Otonashi was the only one to actually accomplish the mission. None of the other characters really turn the tide of the events afterwards in any meaningful way. You look at Lord of the Rings and try to remove any character from the Fellowship (perhaps save for Legolas and Gimli), and the whole thing falls apart and Sauron wins. But this is kind of an irrelevant criticism since the good guys don't win in the big picture: Vydar does. The main characters can't quite turn any tide because they don't want Vydar to win. And it's the journey not the destination.

The main contribution Dan feels he has to his story is helping others find their horizons, but as I've stated all but one of the people he helps wind up dead in a ditch shortly after finding their horizon. And I suppose he accidentally distracts the Valkyrie at the end. You could argue that's how he helps Vydar win, however unintentionally. Ah, whatever.

---

Because of the ramping nature of the story, where things were super-slow in the beginning and super-fast towards the ending, a lot of these criticisms could be felt in clusters towards the end. And because of that I was poised not to like the ending chapters very much as they felt very rushed. I hope Vydar is telling the truth when he says he'll accept responsibility for his actions, because otherwise he basically goes unpunished by Dan for explicitly betraying the main group even though he didn't have to, directly resulting in the deaths of Kaori and Sharwin. Everybody's just like, "Well, you may have killed 40% of Valhalla, but you seem like a nice dude, personally. He may be a bad guy but he's not a bad guy." The Valhalla story arc ends very abruptly, is what I'm saying.

Now you might be thinking that I'm complaining a lot. And you'd be right. The point of this all is I will say that most of my good will was restored in Ch. 61, which was probably the best chapter in the entire story and completely used criticism #3 to its advantage. It made what could be seen as an extremely unsatisfying character ending into an extremely satisfying story ending, and did the impossible--make me glad to see Dan back in his cell again. I shouldn't like seeing Dan immediately lose his gloves and end up back in jail after all he's done and learned in Valhalla. I should want to see him use all his experience and tech to smash his way through that place like an Oldboy Hallway fight scene.

But somehow this was more satisfying. It made everything on Valhalla relevant to Dan's resolution on Isadora: the character stuff, not the tech. It also made the relationship between Dan and Heleer much more complex and impactful. What Dan's willing to do for her, and his faith in her, knowing it will lead them both to the horizon rather than him dragging her along made his attachment to her much more genuine and (dare I say it) romantic. Truly a man's man. It washed away all my earlier criticisms of hating that cell and thinking Dan was a dum-dum, and made me glad to see him back there. My only real complaint about 61 was not getting to see his actual reunion with Heleer, but hey what are already-confirmed sequels for? I now very much look forward to seeing these unexplored things, perhaps meeting Darren again, getting to see Heleer's Point of View, finding out who Dan's parents are, finding out who cuts their hair, and so on.

Overall it was a truly superb piece of writing, and a perfect ending for the story that made me forgive almost everything I didn't like about it. It did anything but "fail to deliver". Give me an editor's pen and I'd basically change nothing about it. Very impressive for only a few paragraphs, especially since it was delivered in a way I didn't think I'd like.

I suppose you could even say it... subverted my expectations?

...

I have to go wash my mouth out now.

As usual I have no shortage of complaints, but I complain about things because I love them. <3

~TAF

Thanks for the feedback TAF! Interesting thoughts on #2 and especially #3, which I had not considered. This is why I need feedback: because I'm partially blind to my own writing. My thoughts are below:

Spoiler Alert!

#1 This is, I feel, the number one flaw in the fiction (or rather a symptom of the flaw), and the thing I will be working on the most to fix.

#2 Hmm. Good to know. One could say that you should not stretch something out once it's finished (same goes for stretching the story out once the main conflict is finished), but I can see how deaths could get predictable, especially if they start following any sort of pattern. I'll put it in the list of things to watch out for.

#3 It's interesting that you should bring this up. It wasn't actually my intention to have Dan be so unneeded in his own story; that just happened on its own. However, for a while now, I've been getting increasingly bored and fed up with stories and movies where the main character is 'the one', without whom everyone and everything is doomed. It makes a nice story at first, but it gets boring after the first few times, because it's incredibly unlikely and therefore unrealistic.

What should happen is a more realistic story, where if the main character somehow changes the course of the universe, he's going to need help doing it, and not be the sole individual upon which everything rests (he might be part of 'the one group' at best). It's still unlikely that average Joe is going to change the course of the universe even then; what is more likely is that he is 'the one', but only for his own personal universe. That is the best of both worlds, where you can still have 'the one' and yet not have him changing the course of humanity or what have you. Instead things stay very personal, but the stakes still feel large simply because the rest of the 'world' isn't present in the world of the story.

I think what happened with this story is that the public stakes overshot the main conflict. Public stakes are what the world of the novel as a whole could lose if the protagonist fails to overcome the main conflict. The main conflict deals with a much smaller world than the whole of the war on Valhalla, and I failed to notice that while writing. So that's why #3 exists: The world was too big for the story. If I hadn't been writing in a predefined plot, that might not have happened, but... ah well.

Incidentally, I've recently been intrigued by the idea of a story whose protagonist is decidedly NOT 'the one', but rather watches someone ELSE be 'the one'. There's no twist where they become the one at the end. I don't know if it would work... it's just an interesting idea. It goes against expectations. Do you think it would work? (Think Han Solo as the protagonist, or Ron Weasley.)

----

I agree the ending is a bit rushed. Again, that's a result of working in a predefined plot (predefined by the Quest), and some of that too-big-world stuff I mentioned above. If things had been told from Vydar's perspective, things would have seemed much more drawn out I think. As it is, the ending seems short because Dan wasn't around for most of it.

I'm glad you liked the final chapter. Like I think I said once the posting was done, I also wanted to see Dan blast his way out of the prison block, Heleer in tow. That's how the tale ended for a long time. But the story took the reins in a few places (something I've always held does not happen when outlining before writing), and the ending was definitely one of them. I finally had to acknowledge what kind of ending the story was pointing me to.

As far as the sequel, I wouldn't say it's confirmed. It's on the table, but it's still well within the realm of possibility (or even probability) to be swept off the table. I recently got a burst of inspiration for the first installment in BaoP. If that falls through or has problems, then I'll go back to the sequel. But if not, then Dan might have to stay in limbo. But who knows? Maybe another eight years from now I'll come back and write that sequel.

~TGRF.