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  #49  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:28 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

I give up. Math hard. I still don't think all the factors have been considered. But will concede that I was somewhat wrong in my boastful declaration that 3 dice is better than Tough. After attempting to do some statistics myself, I've concluded that in my mind rolling 3 dice is better at some point than Tough, although attack dice must reach a certain amount for that to be the case.

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  #50  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:54 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Id rather have 3 Dice than Tough anyday. Think about it in the opposite way.

Would you rather have an hero that always has 3 skulls when he attacks or 6 attack dice? Id always want the 6 attack dice because of the chance of massive hits. That chance for 5-6 on attack dice is nice.

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  #51  
Old March 4th, 2010, 05:56 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Id rather have 3 Dice than Tough anyday. Think about it in the opposite way.

Would you rather have an hero that always has 3 skulls when he attacks or 6 attack dice? Id always want the 6 attack dice because of the chance of massive hits. That chance for 5-6 on attack dice is nice.
Really? I'd take the three skulls. For me, consistency beats the occasional attack of 5-6, and negates the worry about whiffing.
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  #52  
Old March 4th, 2010, 06:00 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Id rather have 3 Dice than Tough anyday. Think about it in the opposite way.

Would you rather have an hero that always has 3 skulls when he attacks or 6 attack dice? Id always want the 6 attack dice because of the chance of massive hits. That chance for 5-6 on attack dice is nice.
Not quite the same analogy. If you roll alot of shields, the amount of damage taken will be the same: 0 (unless if the enemy rolls a LOT of skulls.) On the other hand, more skulls will cause additional damage.

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  #53  
Old March 4th, 2010, 06:00 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

I dunno, Kinseth. Attacking a figure with 1 life and three defense dice I think I'll take three skulls over rolling six dice pretty much every time.

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  #54  
Old March 4th, 2010, 06:08 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Id rather have 3 Dice than Tough anyday. Think about it in the opposite way.

Would you rather have an hero that always has 3 skulls when he attacks or 6 attack dice? Id always want the 6 attack dice because of the chance of massive hits. That chance for 5-6 on attack dice is nice.
3 automatic hits are better against low defense figures whereas 6 attack dice are better against high defense figures.

Think of it this way. If you're fighting a squad figure with 2 or less defense, 3 auto skulls will always kill it whereas 6 dice won't. Alternatively, against a Raelin backed Minion, 6 attack dice have a better chance of landing a hit then 3 auto skulls.

You could also consider 3 attack dice with deadly attack/shot which would have an even higher variance and do even worse against low defense and even better against high defense.
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  #55  
Old March 4th, 2010, 06:08 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Id rather have 3 Dice than Tough anyday.
The only situation where this is correct is if:
  1. You only have one life left, and
  2. You're facing an attack of 5 or greater
In that situation, 5 defense is better than 2+tough. This can be verified as the breakpoint by comparing the wound chance table to the G-Nator wound chance table.

Aside from that, tough is always (slightly) better than three additional defense dice. Consult the post I made two posts before yours for details.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Think about it in the opposite way.

Would you rather have an hero that always has 3 skulls when he attacks or 6 attack dice? Id always want the 6 attack dice because of the chance of massive hits. That chance for 5-6 on attack dice is nice.
Roughly the mirror image situation applies here. 3 autoskulls is better than 6 attack dice, except against very high defense figures with lots of life.
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  #56  
Old March 5th, 2010, 02:15 AM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Oh dear. I seem to have sparked off something that started a massive string of math guys crunching numbers and not really coming up with a definitive answer. We need something less challenging!!!

So is that a club, a microphone, or a maraca in his hand?

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  #57  
Old March 5th, 2010, 02:33 AM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The only situation where this is correct is if:
  1. You only have one life left, and
  2. You're facing an attack of 5 or greater
In that situation, 5 defense is better than 2+tough. This can be verified as the breakpoint by comparing the wound chance table to the G-Nator wound chance table.

Aside from that, tough is always (slightly) better than three additional defense dice. Consult the post I made two posts before yours for details.
In reality, Tough is probably closer to being worth 2 shields overall since defense dice get rolled against both normal and special attacks whereas the Tough is worth 0 Shields vs specials.

Perhaps the best examples are the Nators, they would be much more playable with 2/4 for stats that 2/1 + tough. Granted they still would be below average but at least then they would be less of a gamble.
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  #58  
Old March 5th, 2010, 02:49 AM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

I just played 2 games of KoW vs Dwarves, and I have a few things I enjoyed and a few things that presented themselves as problems.

Axegrinders x3
Darrak
Mogrimm
Migol
500/15
vs.
KoW x3
Sir Gilbert
Nilfheim
500/15

I liked Mogrimm, he played well, but his Commander's Strike didn't do a whole ton; between activating the other heroes and missing rolls he only got 3 Knights in the first game and 1 wound on Nilfheim in the second with CS. His attack did fair, but that's expected. My real problem was that he died fast after he got pinned, I quickly learned that tough is not equal to 3 dice; especially when my brother can roll 2 skulls every time on 3 dice.

Migol and Darrak have proven their worth in the past, but I wonder if Mogrimm should replace Migol. The 10 point difference just means I can exclude Isamu even more. I just had a problem with to many heroes... I think this point was made with the KoW in the past.

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  #59  
Old March 5th, 2010, 03:23 AM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Yeah for anything close to 500 points, I think the you most you want is 2 dwarf heroes, which pretty much leaves Migol vs Mogrimm. I think your army should run either 4x Dwarves or 5x Dvarves since 3 squads is only leaving you with the ability to take 9 casualties to the axegrinders before your attacks per turn start decreasing
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  #60  
Old March 5th, 2010, 01:31 PM
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Re: Mogrimm Forgehammer Pre-Release Discussion

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't this guy going to get owned by the special poison attack of the drow in the same pack? 2D vs 3A with the poison damage risk on top? Yikes! It seems like a lot of special attackers will really punish him. As dangerous as he would be to DW8k, he could also get mowed down with one order marker by the same.
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