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  #4345  
Old September 20th, 2020, 03:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Mindless Pack Command is a nice improvement in that it makes Elbad a necessarily more dynamic figure, but it might have slipped into "too difficult/weak to be worth the effort" territory. Playtesting will tell. The big question will be, is it better to spend points and order markers to position Elbad, or are you better off just focusing on the Thralls instead?
I suppose you would want to aim for a full round or more of MPC bonus. Giving up a Thrall OM is (without Elbad) an average of 2 Thralls. The first 2 MPC activations bring you back to even, then anything after that is the payoff. On top of that, though, is any heat Elbad draws off your Thralls. So 2 bonus activations and a turn of positioning may well be worth 1 less Thrall OM and wasting an opponent's turn worth of attacks, before considering payoff activations. There's also the question of whether or not two turns with 3 Thralls (average with Elbad) is better or worse than three turns with 2 Thralls (without him). That is probably a pretty situational answer, but you would also have Elbad's own activation that's a Ranged attack of 3 (or 4 with height), so that is actually one more attack.

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I think the change to Nexus is a mistake. The power went from one where you want Elbad in a good position, to one where it's better to leave Elbad in the starting zone. It's a (not all that useful) ability buy for your other Undead that doesn't require Elbad to do anything at all.
I disagree. For Cyprien/Sonya (with Skeletons) you're usually reanimating on/next to Cyprien, who may or may not be mobile. While this version of NN adds Sonya as a possible spawn point for Cyprien's Skeletons, I doubt you'd be putting OMs on her before Cyprien dies, meaning she's going to be a start-zone option. So you could have her at one end and Elbad at the other, giving you vastly different positioning options (in addition to Cyprien in the field; also none of this so far has considered maps with split start zones). And if you did want to use an OM to position a non-Cyprien spawn point, I would think you'd rather risk Elbad than Sonya: he's got that Ranged attack, +1 Life, and doesn't cost you anything to Cyprien's rolls if he dies (and also doesn't mostly-die himself if Cyprien does). Plus you could even position Elbad as a forward spawn and leave Cyprien for later, again without risking Sonya.

For Nicholas, again it's just the flexibility of any space adjacent to Nicholas instead of only the space of the killed figure, but that's a strict upgrade over the previous NN. Then there's adding Marcu, which gives you a cheap option for a very mobile spawn point if you want to risk an OM on him. But as that wasn't an option in the previous version, again it's a strict upgrade. Ultimately, yes, positioning Elbad costs an OM, but I'm not trying to add a competitive-tier-boosting unit, just a fun, thematic option. Maybe it's a case where he should cost 50 points as-is instead of 80 (giving you a Thrall back; also he does compare somewhat poorly to Me-Burq-Sa, non-bonding synergy and smaller threat range).


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  #4346  
Old September 20th, 2020, 05:26 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I disagree. For Cyprien/Sonya (with Skeletons) you're usually reanimating on/next to Cyprien, who may or may not be mobile. While this version of NN adds Sonya as a possible spawn point for Cyprien's Skeletons, I doubt you'd be putting OMs on her before Cyprien dies, meaning she's going to be a start-zone option. So you could have her at one end and Elbad at the other, giving you vastly different positioning options (in addition to Cyprien in the field; also none of this so far has considered maps with split start zones). And if you did want to use an OM to position a non-Cyprien spawn point, I would think you'd rather risk Elbad than Sonya: he's got that Ranged attack, +1 Life, and doesn't cost you anything to Cyprien's rolls if he dies (and also doesn't mostly-die himself if Cyprien does). Plus you could even position Elbad as a forward spawn and leave Cyprien for later, again without risking Sonya.

For Nicholas, again it's just the flexibility of any space adjacent to Nicholas instead of only the space of the killed figure, but that's a strict upgrade over the previous NN. Then there's adding Marcu, which gives you a cheap option for a very mobile spawn point if you want to risk an OM on him. But as that wasn't an option in the previous version, again it's a strict upgrade. Ultimately, yes, positioning Elbad costs an OM, but I'm not trying to add a competitive-tier-boosting unit, just a fun, thematic option. Maybe it's a case where he should cost 50 points as-is instead of 80 (giving you a Thrall back; also he does compare somewhat poorly to Me-Burq-Sa, non-bonding synergy and smaller threat range).
I think you're greatly overvaluing adding spawning points. Even in cases where it will be better to spawn somewhere else, it won't be that much better. I can't think of a situation where it would be a viable strategy to work around, rather it will be a rarely-useful trick.
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  #4347  
Old September 20th, 2020, 07:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Maybe give him a chance to bring back a second dead one next to himself.
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  #4348  
Old September 22nd, 2020, 09:25 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I think you're greatly overvaluing adding spawning points. Even in cases where it will be better to spawn somewhere else, it won't be that much better. I can't think of a situation where it would be a viable strategy to work around, rather it will be a rarely-useful trick.
I was mostly responding to the idea that the change was somehow a step lower on the power scale. I'm aware it's not an earth-shattering ability, but I'm not aiming for such. I think at 50 points he would make a thematic filler that, as noted, adds an occasional interesting wrinkle.

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Maybe give him a chance to bring back a second dead one next to himself.
And interesting angle I hadn't considered, but this would mostly work with Thralls and probably wreak havoc on balance and power level (and/or be an annoying way to circumvent the need to roll to reanimate Skeletons).


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  #4349  
Old September 26th, 2020, 04:15 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Seeing as there's some concern about there not being enough Yokai yet, I think that it would help to get some more feedback and direction on some of the next Yokai who would be able to attack multiple times per turn (filling the faction's core weakness at the moment).

The first one is Nure Onna:


Notes:
  • The incentive to move her through water makes her fairly map-dependent. She plays very differently depending on how the water is organized throughout the map (and generally few maps completely lack water), and by extension she can result in very unique gameplay for the faction through Seimei's Shapeshift. Suddenly, perching Kincho near some water could be a dangerous mind-game for the opponent, since he could instantly turn into Nure Onna. Of course, your own ability to bluff is somewhat hampered by Seimei's Divination, which makes these kinds of moves (especially if you start loading her up with OMs) easier to predict.
  • Her desire to stack OMs emphasizes the "gimmick" for the faction. You'll never have as many revealed OMs as you want, which makes the choices between which powers to activate more meaningful.
  • Her 7 move is a good utility even on non-water maps. By putting all OMs on her for Round 1, she can move up 7, shapeshift with a slower Yokai in your starting zone, move up 7 again, etc. Combined with Kincho, she makes the faction surprisingly fast despite them being a bunch of single-activation Unique Heroes.
The reason why she isn't in the initial pairing of Yokai is because I feel like she could use some more polish. Her initial draft was too weak against squads and resulted in some weird gameplay effects, so these recent changes are meant to smooth her out a bit.


There's also another Yokai that may actually be ready very soon. I just did another availability check on this miniature, which I had thought would be too rare for SoV, and it still has over 50 sculpts available online (albeit it's lower than I'd like, so any submission would have to come soon). Here's Ibaraki-doji:


Notes:
  • He's meant to help the faction offensively throughout the duration of the round, whereas Nure Onna rewards the player for stacking OMs on her until the end of it.
  • His slow move (when he can't get in the first attack for Demon of Rashomon) helps emphasize the faster Yokai and Seimei's Shapeshift. Nure Onna, Kincho, and Masha become very useful for getting him into the fight.
  • Insatiable Greed may seem like it's essentially trivialized by Seimei, but when you only have 4 revealed OMs per round, the choice isn't as easy as you might expect. Sating Ibaraki often requires giving up on another power like Kincho's trickery or another attack with Nure Onna.
  • 7L/3D is probably the best pairing with Masha's Fiery Retribution so far (if that change is approved). I like these kinds of soft synergies between specific units, especially since they're both Oni.
My main concern right now (other than Ibaraki's availability) is that when these two are paired together, Ibaraki-doji will pretty much always just go out and attack stuff until he dies, at which point OMs start going to Nure Onna. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I'm concerned that the gameplay division is too linear at the moment.
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  #4350  
Old September 28th, 2020, 05:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Nure Onna
A solid all-around design, with nice order marker usage that the faction is good for. Life/Defense is pretty low for a primary attacker, though good use of Life Drain with multi-attacks may make up for that.

Ibaraki-doji
Another overall solid attacker. Insatiable Greed is neat for the faction, and Demon of Rashomon is all-around good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
My main concern right now (other than Ibaraki's availability) is that when these two are paired together, Ibaraki-doji will pretty much always just go out and attack stuff until he dies, at which point OMs start going to Nure Onna. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I'm concerned that the gameplay division is too linear at the moment.
The problem stems from the faction's lack of decisive roles. Nure Onna and Ibaraki-doji occupy the same role, which is all-purpose attacker. Neither is better at some things than others. So there's no real incentive to mix things up; fight first with the strongest, then move on to the second-strongest. If, say, one was an assassin, you may try to time a deadly strike. Or if one was a heavy single-attack good against heroes and high-defense squads, and the other was a lower-attack multi-attacker ideal against most squads, you'd have reason to spread markers.

The compounding order marker design makes it worse; you don't want to use Nure Onna unless you can pile order markers on her. That's not the core issue, though; while the faction has some swapping ability, normally one uses a unit already on the front lines as much as possible before they die.
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  #4351  
Old September 28th, 2020, 08:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Thank you for the excellent feedback (as always), Scytale!

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Nure Onna
A solid all-around design, with nice order marker usage that the faction is good for. Life/Defense is pretty low for a primary attacker, though good use of Life Drain with multi-attacks may make up for that.
Her squishiness is definitely a huge drawback. If she isn't killing a few figures each turn, then she generally falls very quickly. Her earlier iteration actually had 5L/2D, but I found that this was even swingier, especially against squads, where she would easily die in a single turn sometimes.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
My main concern right now (other than Ibaraki's availability) is that when these two are paired together, Ibaraki-doji will pretty much always just go out and attack stuff until he dies, at which point OMs start going to Nure Onna. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I'm concerned that the gameplay division is too linear at the moment.
The problem stems from the faction's lack of decisive roles. Nure Onna and Ibaraki-doji occupy the same role, which is all-purpose attacker. Neither is better at some things than others. So there's no real incentive to mix things up; fight first with the strongest, then move on to the second-strongest. If, say, one was an assassin, you may try to time a deadly strike. Or if one was a heavy single-attack good against heroes and high-defense squads, and the other was a lower-attack multi-attacker ideal against most squads, you'd have reason to spread markers.
I think that you've hit the nail on the head here. Since I'm reluctant to give the Yokai multiple hero activations, there's been a need to give them multiple multi-attackers to stand a chance against squads without falling apart completely when one attacker dies. These iterations of Ibaraki-doji and Nure Onna have a large degree of overlap, though--especially since I recently changed Nure Onna to have fewer yet stronger attacks.

The potential to shift Nure Onna into an assassination role to further distinguish between the two is interesting and still authentic to her legend. The faction has a need for more than just Ibaraki-doji as an answer to squads, though, especially since he can only get in at most two attacks per turn. Perhaps dropping Nure Onna's attack to 2 and increasing the number of attacks to "1 plus the number of revealed Order Markers" would be enough to distinguish between the two? That would look like this:



That essentially always gives her double attack like Ibaraki, with the potential to get up to 5 attacks if you fully commit to her for the round. This was actually the version of Paralyzing Trap that I've tested the most--the reduction to 1-4 attacks with +1 attack actually came about as a way to try and reduce the number of Order Markers that she needs to feel worth using. Ironically, I think that this version is easier to use with fewer Order Markers since three attacks of three is easier to achieve and only takes one revealed OM committed to her for the round (since you can then move the one that you just revealed on her to another card).

I would imagine that this would be coupled with a bump to 6 attack for Ibaraki-doji's normal attack. Thanks to his Greed, he's outshone for his points by other 120 point heavy hitters anyway (at least when you aren't dropping 190+ points on other Yokai), and giving him a little bit more utility as a can-opener helps to distinguish between him and Nure Onna even further.

Do you think that this would be enough to give each of them their own niche? I think that Ibaraki will still likely lead games for the most part and Nure Onna will wait to pull off a few surprise attacks when the opportunity presents itself, but ideally this revision would create a few more times each game where their different twists encourage the player to use one over the other. If there still isn't enough of a reason to take one over the other, then I think that it might be time to rework her more significantly into an assassin type of role.

Quote:
The compounding order marker design makes it worse; you don't want to use Nure Onna unless you can pile order markers on her. That's not the core issue, though; while the faction has some swapping ability, normally one uses a unit already on the front lines as much as possible before they die.
I've definitely experienced this with Nure Onna especially. With the other Yokai, it's actually worth exchanging them back and forth to keep your opponent guessing and to leverage their unique talents (such as using a Kincho turn to bypass a screen, then a Masha turn to put some hurt on Raelin and penalize all of the squads around her, then an Ibaraki/Nure Onna turn to mop up some surrounding defenders). Nure Onna is one of the sharkiest units that I've played, though, in that if you risk not taking turns with her, she often falls soon thereafter. Losing that Shapeshift placement is a big loss, which requires her to play a bit more cautiously for the sake of the rest of the army.
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Old September 28th, 2020, 09:03 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I still think you should play with the arm retrieval.

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Old September 28th, 2020, 11:19 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I did toy around with the arm retrieval for a bit longer after our discussion in my thread, but I ultimately felt like the faction needed a Krug-esque powerhouse more to really stand a chance against squads. So Demon of Rashomon (or something similar) feels like a necessity, and I think that Insatiable Greed makes for interesting and deceptively tough choices when paired with the other Yokai.

Arm retrieval would likely come at the cost of Flying, then (unless there's a way to incorporate it into the revealed OM mechanic that I failed to think of). Since Ibaraki losing his arm and disguising himself is just one of his famous stories and he was still known for being the most terrifying and prominent servant of Shuten-doji before that, I think that basing this design around his marauding days and letting the wound on the side of the miniature pay subtle homage to his other story may be the best way to go. I kind of see it like Grendel in a sense--he could be designed around losing his arm, but there's also a lot of compelling other content that can be used.
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  #4354  
Old September 30th, 2020, 10:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@Leaf_It and I are working on a common squad together. Let us know what you think

We like the simple and thematic design so far...looking to hear any feedback as we refine it and keep playtesting this version.


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Old September 30th, 2020, 11:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Love the design of the scorpions. I love that they're just 2/2s, I love that they don't have bonding, I love the simple but helpful powers, and I love that they're not just anti-hero.

They cannot be Predators though. Just not possible, thanks to the not-so-good wording of Predator Bonding. Has to be something else.

I don't like that that are only Move 5. Feels really slow compared to other insect-like types. The design could afford some extra speed to help them vs range anyway.
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Old October 1st, 2020, 12:09 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Thanks for the feedback. We’re pretty happy with it so far as well. 6 move does kinda make sense for these guys and being predators is unfortunate since that’s actually how they’re classified IRL. Not really sure what else they would fit...suggestions?
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