Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > AotV Customs
AotV Customs A place for Arena of the Valkyrie Customs


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #265  
Old May 31st, 2020, 04:24 AM
All Your Pie's Avatar
All Your Pie All Your Pie is offline
 
Join Date: July 12, 2010
Location: USA - Arizona - Tucson
Posts: 2,679
Images: 8
All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla All Your Pie is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

I played a game with kd that Iíll post a full report for later, but in summary it was another point of evidence than Velkhor doesnít work all that well with Acolytes. Which is ideal.

Iím moving Monday, so I might be out of commission here for a while. After that, Iíll get the op properly updated with testing info and we can move forward on a change here, in point cost or vulnerability strength or both. I still want to see what the spirit looks like when itís bringing a fairly pricey unique down to 2 dice or less, but itís looking like the opponent has enough control over how that happens (leading with vulnerability targets or avoiding Velkhor) that it isnít overwhelmingly scary. I think Iím definitely in favor of a point decrease though. The stuff he pairs with isnít very dangerous, which means we can start to push him a little to get him into range where heís playable by himself.
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old September 27th, 2020, 08:51 PM
NecroBlade's Avatar
NecroBlade NecroBlade is offline
"our design team knows what it's doing"
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Location: KY - Shepherdsville
Posts: 20,814
Images: 143
Blog Entries: 21
NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

Putting this up while it's still fresh.

Me: Mimring, Tarn, Pyria, Ukushisa
vs MegaSilver: Q10, Isamu, Velkohr, Velnesh

Went for a 400-ish point "Master Set" style game with several units to test and no Common Squads.

Spoiler Alert!


Some thoughts after the game (mainly MegaSilver's): Shift/Blink had lots of good, fun options around/through the wall, made NecroBlade think of where to position figures that weren't actively involved in attacking. Velkhor's concept of reducing defense is good, but the execution is disappointing. The 1 shield minimum made the Aura ineffective, especially felt bad rolling 1-skull attacks knowing that it couldn't help. Velnesh and Ukushisa could probably swap points, the 5A/6D of the UP did a lot of work.

My thoughts for Velkhor specifically: he was just a disappointment. Obviously his Spirit didn't get the chance to be tested, but his Aura did literally nothing. Either too many skulls were rolled and the defender was dead anyway, or only 1 shield was rolled and the Aura couldn't do anything. We talked about it after and thought a possible alternative could be forcing the defender to re-roll one shield, no minimum. That way it still reduces defense (to help the Badru, for example), there is potential to reduce a defense to 0, and it matters against a wider spectrum of rolls. Additionally, we both would like the Spirit better if it mirrored the Aura (like the Viking Spirits). It could also force a one-shield re-roll, no minimum. The other effect this change to both would have is bringing his points way down. Without such potential massive drops in defense, his points could be brought more in line with the results.


Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set!
317-149
C3V Brainstorm
Pepperony - 14/09/13
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old September 28th, 2020, 05:08 PM
lefton4ya's Avatar
lefton4ya lefton4ya is offline
PDFin' sweet self spammer
 
Join Date: December 22, 2008
Location: USA - OH/KY - Cincinnati/Florence
Posts: 4,617
Images: 127
Blog Entries: 1
lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death!
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

@NecroBlade thanks for test and input. so you are recommending these these changes:

Quote:
FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Velkhor rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, you may re-roll one defense die that showed a shield. Frailty Aura may only be used once per turn.

DEMON'S FRAILTY SPIRIT
When Velkhor is destroyed, place this figure on any unique army card. When an opponent's figure with Velkhor’s spirit rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, you may re-roll one defense die that showed a shield.
I can see this IMHO is better than as one currently listed in OP. Probability table says -1D is almost as good as +1 Attack in most circumstances, and this new power is similar stats but different enough from Gothlok's AURA OF DESPAIR.

Last edited by lefton4ya; October 5th, 2020 at 10:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old October 4th, 2020, 02:59 PM
Pumpkin_King's Avatar
Pumpkin_King Pumpkin_King is offline
A Happy Extradimensional Horror
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: VA-Culpeper
Posts: 7,704
Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun Pumpkin_King is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

I like the change to Frailty.
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old October 5th, 2020, 06:45 PM
TREX's Avatar
TREX TREX is offline
"like" happy
 
Join Date: February 24, 2010
Location: USA- ID- PRESTON
Posts: 7,695
TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death! TREX is hot lava death!
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

I like the changes to the frailty ability. Just to clarify. When your opponent rolls defense, "You may reroll one of the shields" or "you may make the opponent reroll one of the shields." I think I'd prefer to roll your opponents dice.

I know I'm not part of the design group in here but have a suggestion based on the feedback that I've been reading. Here goes. This guy has one real ability while he is alive. The second ability is awesome, but the first one is a little lackluster. I really like the reroll the defense kind of deal. Why not double down and let the player controlling Velkhor reroll all shields 1 time. That would make the guy pretty exciting to play and really go for a real frailty vibe. He is a demon darklord, why not make him scary.
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old October 6th, 2020, 07:16 PM
Captain Stupendous's Avatar
Captain Stupendous Captain Stupendous is offline
 
Join Date: May 21, 2015
Location: Country - State - Major City (Town)
Posts: 222
Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby!
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

I’ve got some thoughts about the proposed changes to Frailty Aura (forcing your opponent to reroll one shield whenever they roll defense). First I wanted to note that this change would be a pretty dramatic adjustment, as I believe an aura like that would likely be VERY powerful and probably necessitate an increase in point cost.

Forcing your opponent to reroll one shield is much better than reducing their defense by 1. I think it's even better than Taelord’s aura (increasing friendly attack by 1). For example, when rolling an extra attack die, there's a 50% chance that the attack will deal 1 more wound than it would otherwise. But when rerolling an enemy shield, there's a 67% chance that the attack will deal 1 more wound than it would otherwise, provided that at least one skull and one shield were rolled to begin with.

There’s other differences, of course, most significantly something like Taelord needs to be near your own figures, whereas Velkhor needs to be near enemy figures, but I still think that all things considered rerolling one enemy shield is generally even better than giving your own figures +1 attack.

That being said, I agree that Velkhor is currently slightly overcosted. However, I don’t think that he’s actually that much weaker than most other aura-based cheerleaders. I think part of the reason why rolling extra attack or defense "feels" more powerful than rerolls or Velkhor's current aura is that you can't tell as easily when rolling the extra attack or defense is irrelevant. Rolling an extra attack is "always on" so to speak, so it always feels like you're getting some benefit, even when in reality rolling the extra die has no actual effect on the outcome of the attack.

On the other hand, rerolls and Velkhor's current aura are only applied after normal dice have been rolled, so it's far easier to see exactly when and how the outcome of an attack is affected (or not) by the reroll/velkhors shield reduction. This makes it stand out every time a reroll or shield reduction has no affect.

I also really like how the current version of the aura introduces some interesting tactical decisions (positioning Velkhor near enemies with high defense is generally better than putting him near enemies with low defense; conversely, pairing him with friendly high-attack figures is far more effective than pairing him with low-attack figures) that would be lost with the more generally useful reroll aura. The current version also plays really nicely with the Wolves of Badru Pounce Special Attack, as it provides some insurance against unusually lucky defense rolls which could kill your wolves and lets you use their special attack more aggressively, as you can be more confident that you won't lose your wolves to randomly good defense rolls. In a Badru build, even when the frailty aura never "activates", Velkhor can still be useful in allowing you to use pounce on figures you normally wouldn't.

As someone who has playtested the current version of Velkhor a decent number of times (at least 5 games with him I think at this point?) I would strongly prefer to test the current version at a lower point cost, as well as possibly either reducing the vulnerability spirit to just -1 Defense, or making it also subtract one shield when at least two are rolled. He is definitely underperforming in his current form, but I think the current Frailty Aura is unique and interesting enough that it would be a shame to completely replace without first testing him at a lower point total.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old October 6th, 2020, 08:24 PM
Astroking112's Avatar
Astroking112 Astroking112 is offline
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: USA - TX - Dallas
Posts: 2,590
Images: 31
Blog Entries: 43
Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Astroking112 is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

From a quick scan of the past few pages and the OP, it doesn't look like we have any tests with the Acolytes of Vorganund yet. At ~150 points, I don't think that Velkhor will be too powerful with them, but it's worth noting that he can be dropped into a favorable position and then just passively boost the Acolytes by helping their demons kill things. His low base attack helps make it painful to reposition him, but at a lower point cost he'll become more palatable with them.

From the tests that I've seen, I'm concerned that he feels underwhelming without the Wolves of Badru or bonding in general. I really like how he emphasizes their Pounce and think that it's a great interaction, but I don't expect that our target audience will have wolves lying around that need the help.

It's perhaps a similar dilemma to the one that Finn and Thorgrimm faced in RotV, albeit they at least had very unique powers that made them fun to use without the Knights of Weston. IMO, Velkhor is fine falling on the lower end of the power curve so long as he's still fun to play and brings something unique to the table like the vikings did back in their own box.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old October 6th, 2020, 08:40 PM
NecroBlade's Avatar
NecroBlade NecroBlade is offline
"our design team knows what it's doing"
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Location: KY - Shepherdsville
Posts: 20,814
Images: 143
Blog Entries: 21
NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth NecroBlade is a man of the cloth
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

I certainly like it if he helps the Wolves, since that's why he's a Darklord after all. And testing with Acolytes just to make sure they don't break will also be good at some point, though I'm not as concerned over exactly how useful he is there.

Admittedly our test was very small scale, but it still presents two problems. First is that being underwhelmed is a trend in his tests, and that's exactly the kind of thing we need to learn from playtests. Second, it was a failure as a "Master Set" test; Pyria*, Velnesh, and Ukushisa all felt good on their own. Synergy is all well and good for any of our units, but we have to keep in mind the stand-alone nature of the set for a portion of its intended audience.


Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set!
317-149
C3V Brainstorm
Pepperony - 14/09/13
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old October 7th, 2020, 03:46 AM
flameslayer93's Avatar
flameslayer93 flameslayer93 is offline
I could go
 
Join Date: December 31, 2009
Location: Playing with wedding bells (Cleveland, Ohio)
Posts: 7,395
Images: 93
Blog Entries: 39
flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun flameslayer93 is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

Im fairly certain AYP did a game or two with the acolytes while they were still in development, so even if there minor changes to them, the interactions should still apply.

My customs.
NE Ohio Tourney - TBA
SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points
AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old October 7th, 2020, 10:01 AM
Scytale's Avatar
Scytale Scytale is offline
Thanksgiving Custom Contest Champion
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Location: USA - MN - Rochester
Posts: 9,770
Images: 469
Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

Captain S makes some good points, especially about how powerful a forced reroll is. (Also, I'm not thrilled about adding another dice roll to every enemy unit nearby. It's not terrible, but it adds time.) Frailty Aura is, as Captain S noted, better against stronger defenses, so we need to keep that in mind when reviewing results.

I'd like to go with a price reduction before any big changes. I'm going to suggest a big decrease to 110.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old October 7th, 2020, 12:52 PM
lefton4ya's Avatar
lefton4ya lefton4ya is offline
PDFin' sweet self spammer
 
Join Date: December 22, 2008
Location: USA - OH/KY - Cincinnati/Florence
Posts: 4,617
Images: 127
Blog Entries: 1
lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death! lefton4ya is hot lava death!
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

The @NecroBlade 's revision compared to one in OP:
  • If 0 shields are rolled, neither power does any harm
  • If only 1 Shied was rolled it reduces to zero 66.67% of the time, making the new power better than one in OP
  • If 2+ Shields are rolled, it reduces it by one 66.67% of the time, making the new power worse than one in OP (which reduces by one 100% of the time)
I did not do math to exact #, but I think if a figure has 5 defense or less then the new power is statistically better, but if a character has 6+ defense (including bonuses such as Raelin) then the OP power is statistically better. Unless we have a bunch of figures in the AOTP set with 6+ defense, the new power is better, and the OP power is practically useless (with 3D, <14.8% chance of reducing defense at all, with 4D, 18% chance of reducing defense). I appreciate @Captain Stupendous 's testing, but IMHO it proved that the power as tested is not that valuable and does little to affect cost and usefulness of figure. Therefore to make the figure worthwhile the cost would need reduced substantially (to like 80) but then the unit would be OP with Bonding and underpowered otherwise - again because the Aura as specified adds to figure's cost in very negligible way.

Therefore, I would much rather see a change of power than reduce cost. @NecroBlade 's suggestions seemed good to me, but willing to take new ones.
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old October 7th, 2020, 02:01 PM
Captain Stupendous's Avatar
Captain Stupendous Captain Stupendous is offline
 
Join Date: May 21, 2015
Location: Country - State - Major City (Town)
Posts: 222
Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby! Captain Stupendous rolls all skulls baby!
Re: [Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
The @NecroBlade 's revision compared to one in OP:
  • If 0 shields are rolled, neither power does any harm
  • If only 1 Shied was rolled it reduces to zero 66.67% of the time, making the new power better than one in OP
  • If 2+ Shields are rolled, it reduces it by one 66.67% of the time, making the new power worse than one in OP (which reduces by one 100% of the time)
I did not do math to exact #, but I think if a figure has 5 defense or less then the new power is statistically better, but if a character has 6+ defense (including bonuses such as Raelin) then the OP power is statistically better. Unless we have a bunch of figures in the AOTP set with 6+ defense, the new power is better, and the OP power is practically useless (with 3D, <14.8% chance of reducing defense at all, with 4D, 18% chance of reducing defense). I appreciate @Captain Stupendous 's testing, but IMHO it proved that the power as tested is not that valuable and does little to affect cost and usefulness of figure. Therefore to make the figure worthwhile the cost would need reduced substantially (to like 80) but then the unit would be OP with Bonding and underpowered otherwise - again because the Aura as specified adds to figure's cost in very negligible way.

Therefore, I would much rather see a change of power than reduce cost. @NecroBlade 's suggestions seemed good to me, but willing to take new ones.
I agree that @NecroBlade 's suggestion of a forced reroll is more powerful than the current version. My concern is that it would be too powerful, possibly even necessitating a price increase to prevent Velkhor from overshadowing Taelord or Gothlok (Granted, Taelord is probably going to be overshadowed anyway just because of his ridiculous point cost). As I pointed out above, the forced reroll aura is significantly better than Gothlok's aura (I think it's about twice as good, as Gothlok's aura prevents a shield about 33% of the time, whereas a forced reroll would prevent a shield 67% of the time) and even better than Taelord's aura, which adds a skull 50% of the time.

Also, I think @lefton4ya 's mathematical analysis of the current power's effectiveness is incorrect? I could be wrong, but I think that with 3 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 25% (not 14.8%), and with 4 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 39% (not 18%); far from "practically useless." This means that against figures with three or less defense the current version is less powerful than Gothlok's -1 defense aura with its 33% chance of reducing a shield, and against figures with 4 or more defense the current version is more powerful. That seems just about right for a figure with an offensive aura. My analysis is based on the tables found here, so I could be wrong if my understanding of this source is incorrect: http://www.virtualtoychest.com/h/her...capestats.html

That's not to say that you should expect the current aura to do amazing things all the time. Significantly, in order to be effective, both the defender has to roll at least two shields AND the attacker has to roll at least two skulls. That's why I said that Velkhor needs to support figures with high attack (like the Badru) in order to earn his points. In my opinion this makes the design more interesting and is a feature, not a bug.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards > AotV Customs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Book of Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite TREX Official Units and Spell Cards 12 August 19th, 2018 09:22 PM
Spite's Customs - Bloo! 10/11 spiteofthedice Custom Units & Army Cards 140 October 14th, 2011 12:12 AM
Spite's exclusive army cards: NEW Tul-Bak-Ra spiteofthedice Official Units 44 May 26th, 2009 08:32 AM
Spite's HS Jokebook - UPDATED 12/11 spiteofthedice Fan Art & Fiction 19 February 1st, 2009 05:25 PM
Spite's DisneyScape Thread spiteofthedice Fan Art & Fiction 3 January 25th, 2009 09:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:10 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.