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  #13  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:25 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Jexik,

As long as you suggest all-Valiant 4th armies in comparison to the 10th you're missing the point. Pointing out that someone skilled with the 4th may not use the 10th well also misses the point. The 10th are an army component, not an army.

You blew off an army that potentially features four figures with six move, five attack and five defense - range six from height. Trouble with Q9... Stingers? Mebbe, but in the right hands that seems really deadly to me even before you factor in Nilfheim. More importantly, it CANNOT be matched by the 4th without losing the 10ths toughness against melee units - needed since they are their own melee screen.

Oddly, for two units so apparently alike, I would say that the 4th and the 10th are too dissimilar to create an apples-to-apples 4th>10th comparison.

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  #14  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:29 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

I think that when you compare these units in a tournament setting, you have to look at every unit in it's highest capacity. That's probably how you'll see them being used in said tournament, so it doesn't make sense to look at them otherwise.

So, when I look at the Mass, I assume they're Valiant (or in a really good army that isn't).

When I look at the 10th, I assume they at least have Raelin.

When I look at the Blasts, I assume they have Gladiatrons.

When I look at the Stingers, I assume they have Raelin and/or Deathreavers (probably just Reavers).

So, to me, it becomes which of the four above scenarios is best to define which squad is the best. I think the 'Trons are easily the best personally. They get (usually) the most dice per marker and can move the most figures. I think it goes Trons, Mass, Stingers, 10th.

When you compare Valiant Mass to 10th/Raelin, the Valiant Mass are better IMO. They can spread out and still keep their bonus and, if 80 points of their army gets killed, they don't get worse. The 10th have incentive to engage, which means they want to bring the fight. The Mass can just chill out while these other armies bring the fight to them, allowing them to get better positioning (in fact, that's why they have a strong matchup against Trons).

Now, if the Mass start getting non-Valiant, it's more of a toss-up. I don't know if Bayonet/Melee Defense is worth the 5 points per squad on a ranged squad, especially once you start getting to 3-4 squads. At 2 squads, the 10th might be better than the Mass because 10 points isn't difficult to lose.

Over in the 550 General Specific Thread, I was comparing these two armies.... which do you think is better? That might help answer this question:

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
10th Foot x3 - 490
Zetacron / Marro Warriors + Isamu - 550

or

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
4th Mass x4 - 545

I vote #2

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  #15  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:30 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

I love the 4th; everyone around here knows it. I also played the 10th last summer at GenCon and got slaughtered. But the difference is small and a few dice out of a hundred will shift the balance...oh, and Charos, Valiant Charos, might shift the balance too. <grin>
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  #16  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:36 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
...which do you think is better? That might help answer this question:

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
10th Foot x3 - 490
Zetacron / Marro Warriors + Isamu - 550

or

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
4th Mass x4 - 545

I vote #2
But make it 565 points, add 1x10th to the first and Marcu/Isamu-Otonashi to the other and #1 looks better.

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  #17  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:44 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post

Over in the 550 General Specific Thread, I was comparing these two armies.... which do you think is better? That might help answer this question:

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
10th Foot x3 - 490
Zetacron / Marro Warriors + Isamu - 550

or

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
4th Mass x4 - 545

I vote #2
#1 is not general specific.

Clancampbell ~ nit pickingly

Apoligies to Aldin, but I always wanted to do that.

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  #18  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:46 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
...which do you think is better? That might help answer this question:

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
10th Foot x3 - 490
Zetacron / Marro Warriors + Isamu - 550

or

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
4th Mass x4 - 545

I vote #2
But make it 565 points, add 1x10th to the first and Marcu/Isamu-Otonashi to the other and #1 looks better.

~Aldin, fine tuningly
I don't know about that. I think I'd rather have Marcu in there with my 16 soldiers and Raelin, especially if there were decent glyphs in play. Plus, in that case, I could just play Charos and 5x Mass, which is probably better than both.

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Last edited by killercactus; January 19th, 2009 at 02:51 PM. Reason: Charos + 5x Mass comment
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  #19  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:49 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by clancampbell View Post
#1 is not general specific.
I know. I originally suggested this in that thread:

Zelrig - 185
10th x3 - 410
Ninjas - 520
Guilty - 550

I noted that this army seems very strong against squads, but lacks against heroes, so I said it would probably be better with Nilf, Raelin and Zetacron. Then, after saying that, I came up with the 4th Mass variant and posted it there.

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  #20  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:53 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
10th Foot x3 - 490
Zetacron / Marro Warriors + Isamu - 550

or

Nilfheim - 185
Raelin - 265
4th Mass x4 - 545

I vote #2
Well, I think I would rather have Deathreavers+Marcu in that second army, as oppose to some extra range. But I'd still rather the 4th army than that army, though. A major reason why is that Nilfheim and Raelin are big targets that my enemy will not ignore, and I'd expect to have the valiant bonus for a good chunk of the game.

But to be fair, again, we seem to have hit upon a point total (and choice of companion units) that happens to favor one over another. What if it were 520 points? Now stingersx4 + Isamu looks good, and it's the 4th that has to drop down and fill in with a single squad of rats, or the like (which pretty much kills any chance of getting a valiant bonus for most of the game). The 10th just loses a bit of filler and looks about as strong as before.

Now, if we allow partial common squad drafting, we can do a more direct apples-to-apples comparison...
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  #21  
Old January 19th, 2009, 02:56 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
to be fair, again, we seem to have hit upon a point total (and choice of companion units) that happens to favor one over another. What if it were 520 points?
520 points was already covered on the last page. 5x Mass and Drake (SotM). Next.



The 4th Mass restriction isn't nearly as restricting as it's made out to be. They're good at just about any point total. Often, even eating 10-20 points will still result in a very powerful Valiant army.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #22  
Old January 19th, 2009, 03:06 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
to be fair, again, we seem to have hit upon a point total (and choice of companion units) that happens to favor one over another. What if it were 520 points?
520 points was already covered on the last page. 5x Mass and Drake (SotM). Next.



The 4th Mass restriction isn't nearly as restricting as it's made out to be. They're good at just about any point total. Often, even eating 10-20 points will still result in a very powerful Valiant army.
As I said, for a given choice of compainion units. For the valiant army, there's no comparison. If you pick an army with first wave figures that can be reliably swept away leaving valiant remnants, that works too. But for a persistently non-valiant army, it takes a particular amount of remaining points to make the 4th look like a better option than the 10th.
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  #23  
Old January 19th, 2009, 03:16 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
As I said, for a given choice of compainion units. For the valiant army, there's no comparison. If you pick an army with first wave figures that can be reliably swept away leaving valiant remnants, that works too. But for a persistently non-valiant army, it takes a particular amount of remaining points to make the 4th look like a better option than the 10th.
But it is not difficult to find an army/point total that uses the Stingers or the 4th better.

The 10th really need to beat both for me to want to play them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Jexik,

As long as you suggest all-Valiant 4th armies in comparison to the 10th you're missing the point. Pointing out that someone skilled with the 4th may not use the 10th well also misses the point. The 10th are an army component, not an army.

You blew off an army that potentially features four figures with six move, five attack and five defense - range six from height. Trouble with Q9... Stingers? Mebbe, but in the right hands that seems really deadly to me even before you factor in Nilfheim. More importantly, it CANNOT be matched by the 4th without losing the 10ths toughness against melee units - needed since they are their own melee screen.

Oddly, for two units so apparently alike, I would say that the 4th and the 10th are too dissimilar to create an apples-to-apples 4th>10th comparison.

~Aldin, leading the charge
I'm not too big on Marcus with just the 10th or the 4th. It doesn't seem like the best use of 100 points when you don't have enough space for some romans/greeks. Neo's 600 point winning army in WI was kind of neat: 4x Redcoats, Nilfheim, and AE. I'm still not convinced that it's one of the best armies we've seen in the last year though.

Oranges are better than apples, IMO, since you can drink their juice and use their zest for other things. Apple pie is overrated. Who cares if you can also make it into cobbler, sauce, and a million other things, apple juice makes little kids poop and that's gross.

(One of the things I continue to like about HS is how differently the similar units play, even something like Heavy Gruts v. Blade Gruts, Zelrig v. Nilfheim, or Romans v. Sacred Band play differently. <3 the design team).

As an army, 4th or Blasts/Glads >10th Reg. = Stingers
As an army component, Stingers > 10th Reg.

As either, 10th Reg. > than just about everything else that's common.

Edit: I have a new signature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #24  
Old January 19th, 2009, 03:33 PM
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Re: 4th>10th

At this point I think we pretty much agree although we are looking at it different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
As an army, 4th or Blasts/Glads >10th Reg. = Stingers
As an army component, Stingers > 10th Reg.
I agree with the first of those statements. I think the second has exceptions. For instance, say you want to use Marcus, MBS, and Romansx2, in a 480 point tournament. 10thx3 is pretty money with that army, giving you a 475 point, 23 hex army with great synergy and OM management. Stingersx3, plus 50 points of filler, does not really sound as good. Neither does 4thx3 plus Marcu, for that matter.
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