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  #133  
Old March 18th, 2019, 04:55 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
2. Class. While I'm not inclined to feel good about closing off an option completely, the design draft voting has represented a second time that warlord as a class has been rejected by vote--the top two vote-getters were non-warlord, and non-warlord classes received more votes overall. A middle ground doesn't really exist between these options, so I don't see us taking Warlord any further. Apologies to its proponents.

Since this leaves the left box stats mostly about flavor, I'll only mention briefly that those are still subject to change. Apart from Elf and Unique Hero, of course.
I think that it makes perfect sense to cut off Warlord as an option at this point. Not only did it seem like the consensus was against it prior to the poll, but the non-Warlord classes generally had more support from what I remember.

That said, I don't think we can go with Queen as a class. Seeing an Elven Queen bond with Crypt Guardians from Feylund would be like seeing a Marro bonding with a Viper squad in my eyes, so I really think that we should choose a different, non-synergistic class.

Quote:
4. Snow Strength. I brought this up in my initial review of the unit, but I worry about Snow Strength needlessly inflating the cost of a unit that is sufficiently sturdy to take advantage of it. Nerak is 3/3 with 3 life, so the benefit to him is minimal, but I could see this figure getting a noticeable power bump from a snow map. This is guesswork, though, but my preference would be Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement over Snow Strength.
I also like Snow and Ice Enhanced Movement more than Snow Strength. It keeps the theme, but avoids making her too reliant on snow terrain.

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2) Battle Dance is interesting and really brings something new. It feels a little overdone though in conjunction with Elven Battle Call. It feels like we should just go with one or the other. And I personally favor Elven Battle Call. The howl from the sculpt of the wolf really stands out to me and gives me visions of an elven battle call. And I like the queen leading her people into battle with it.
I like this suggestion, and it's something I'd like to hear more views on. Either of this design's synergy powers are enough to form the center of the card, and mulling it over I do somewhat agree that having two different movement cheerleaders powers is a bit inelegant.

Any other thoughts on this?
I think that both can work well enough together. They each serve different purposes and are triggered by different mechanics (Battle Dance is centered around defense and repositioning, whereas Elven Battle Call is centered around her being aggressive and staying on the front lines), along with not overlapping themselves.

We also have examples of units like Q10 who are entirely dedicated to a certain purpose. Given that movement is a major theme for the Elves, I don't think that it's weird for an Elven leader to boost the movement of them in two ways.

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Keep in mind that if you choose Queen as a class, she'll get Crypt Guardian synergy.

Not bad, just a note.
Thanks for pointing this out. I think that it's a theme-break for her to bond with Crypt Guardians. I don't buy the cross between Elves and Undead for a queen here.
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  #134  
Old March 18th, 2019, 05:14 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That said, I don't think we can go with Queen as a class. Seeing an Elven Queen bond with Crypt Guardians from Feylund would be like seeing a Marro bonding with a Viper squad in my eyes, so I really think that we should choose a different, non-synergistic class.
That sort of unusual synergy is classic Heroscape. Like Ne-Gok-Sa and Romans. As long as it's not a better fit for either this unit or the Crypt Guardians (that would be unthematic), it's a neat thing that is a positive for most VC voters, not a negative.
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  #135  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:05 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That said, I don't think we can go with Queen as a class. Seeing an Elven Queen bond with Crypt Guardians from Feylund would be like seeing a Marro bonding with a Viper squad in my eyes, so I really think that we should choose a different, non-synergistic class.
That sort of unusual synergy is classic Heroscape. Like Ne-Gok-Sa and Romans. As long as it's not a better fit for either this unit or the Crypt Guardians (that would be unthematic), it's a neat thing that is a positive for most VC voters, not a negative.
I would normally agree, but I'm under the impression that the Elves and Undead are opposing forces on Feylund. Romans following Ne-Gok-Sa happened as a result of Einar trying to help Utgar, and there weren't any rivalries between the two factions since they came from different planets.

I suppose that you could argue that Ullar was similarly trying to help Vydar or vice versa, but I've never felt that strong of a link between the two and it still doesn't feel quite right to me to say that this Elven Queen is perfectly okay with leading an undead army into battle.
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  #136  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:16 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

Considering Scytale is an SoV judge, his opinion is going to carry more weight here for me.
Remember we are designing for SoV and the only opinions that really matter are those of the Judges.
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  #137  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:21 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!



Well met!


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[I]t still doesn't feel quite right to me to say that this Elven Queen is perfectly okay with leading an undead army into battle.
Unless she was part Drow . . .

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  #138  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:30 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Considering Scytale is an SoV judge, his opinion is going to carry more weight here for me.
Remember we are designing for SoV and the only opinions that really matter are those of the Judges.
If we're not trying to make a unit that we're happy with, then what's the point? While SoV is a goal for this design, I'm sure that the reason that many of us contribute is because we like the concept to some extent and have our own thoughts on it. I think that saying that only judges' opinions really matter here is a mistake.

I don't expect people to agree with me or anything, but I don't think that dismissing a concern because of one judge's opinion without the chance for any discussion over it is healthy for the project.
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  #139  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:39 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Considering Scytale is an SoV judge, his opinion is going to carry more weight here for me.
Remember we are designing for SoV and the only opinions that really matter are those of the Judges.
If we're not trying to make a unit that we're happy with, then what's the point? While SoV is a goal for this design, I'm sure that the reason that many of us contribute is because we like the concept to some extent and have our own thoughts on it. I think that saying that only judges' opinions really matter here is a mistake.

I don't expect people to agree with me or anything, but I don't think that dismissing a concern because of one judge's opinion without the chance for any discussion over it is healthy for the project.
Agreed with Astroking on this. I don't think that the difference between Queen or another class is going to be what makes or breaks this unit in the SoV's eyes. I think the only criticism from the judges we have to follow absolutely are if they bring up something as mechanically unworkable within the VC.

That said, I do agree with Scytale on the Queen class here. I don't think that "has incidental synergy with X" and "thematically would want to work with X" are equivalent. If we were going out of our way to make an elf that works with undead then that would be a different story, but as-is I don't think this is enough of a problem to make Queen an unworkable class.

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  #140  
Old March 18th, 2019, 07:47 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

So wait. Making this for SoV is not the main goal because I would much rather create a design for fun?
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  #141  
Old March 18th, 2019, 08:24 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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So wait. Making this for SoV is not the main goal because I would much rather create a design for fun?
That's neither a rebuttal to nor an accurate representation of what anyone here has said.
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  #142  
Old March 19th, 2019, 08:04 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

Having fun and making an SoV-worthy design are both important parts of this process. I think the important thing to note here is that the SoV judges are not popping in here in order to drop vague cryptic hints as to the only kinds of design they will allow to pass review. They are making genuine observations and evaluations of the unit, and giving suggestions for what they think is a good idea. Choosing not to use the suggestion of an SoV judge is not going to be an auto-fail with that judge, so long as the option we do go with has its own merits. The judges are looking for excellently-designed units, not their favorite units or units that they personally would make.

On that topic, I would like to bring up another SoV nominee that was recently rejected, Superfrog's Agrah Fenh, which featured a power nearly identical to Elven Battle Call. I will link the two reviews, both of which were Nay to induct.

1.
2.

Since it's very likely that we'll be using Elven Battle Call on this design going forward, these reviews are incredibly useful to us, as they help define exactly how much tension we can or can't use. That tension lies in, once this figure is engaged, do you place OMs on her or on the figures that she's boosting? Does that choice feel tactically interesting, or is it linear, obvious, or frustrating?

This actually strikes me as an argument to keep some version of Ullar's Battle Dance on the card, as having another cheerleader power to gain value is a good way to prevent the figure from leaning too hard on the tension of Elven Battle Call. Potentially, this could make for interesting choices for both players--do you move into engagement to try and get the benefit of both powers, knowing that your opponent could concentrate attacks on this figure? Or, if you hang back, does your opponent try and rush in to deal with her, knowing that by engaging her they will be giving your elves a movement boost? How do these decisions play out in different matchups?

This, to me, is a decent reason to keep both powers, but even if we decide to cut one, that tension is something we should keep in mind.
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  #143  
Old March 19th, 2019, 08:47 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Having fun and making an SoV-worthy design are both important parts of this process. I think the important thing to note here is that the SoV judges are not popping in here in order to drop vague cryptic hints as to the only kinds of design they will allow to pass review. They are making genuine observations and evaluations of the unit, and giving suggestions for what they think is a good idea. Choosing not to use the suggestion of an SoV judge is not going to be an auto-fail with that judge, so long as the option we do go with has its own merits. The judges are looking for excellently-designed units, not their favorite units or units that they personally would make.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Since it's very likely that we'll be using Elven Battle Call on this design going forward, these reviews are incredibly useful to us, as they help define exactly how much tension we can or can't use. That tension lies in, once this figure is engaged, do you place OMs on her or on the figures that she's boosting? Does that choice feel tactically interesting, or is it linear, obvious, or frustrating?

This actually strikes me as an argument to keep some version of Ullar's Battle Dance on the card, as having another cheerleader power to gain value is a good way to prevent the figure from leaning too hard on the tension of Elven Battle Call. Potentially, this could make for interesting choices for both players--do you move into engagement to try and get the benefit of both powers, knowing that your opponent could concentrate attacks on this figure? Or, if you hang back, does your opponent try and rush in to deal with her, knowing that by engaging her they will be giving your elves a movement boost? How do these decisions play out in different matchups?

This, to me, is a decent reason to keep both powers, but even if we decide to cut one, that tension is something we should keep in mind.
The Agrah Fenh reviews are a good discussion point. The situations aren't the same for these units (we're probably looking at a pricier leader figure than a cheaper, almost filler hero designed with different units in mind), but some of the same frustration of needing to keep this unit engaged with figures constantly is inevitable.

This can be combatted significantly with Ullar's Battle Dance, especially if it lets her still move into engagement, but if it's a once-per-turn power then the player may be mostly focused on moving her instead of the Elves themselves.

If the tension is proving to be unfun, then I definitely think that Elven Battle Call should be adjusted before Ullar's Battle Dance. We might find that normal Elven Leadership feels better when tied with the defensive power, or that the Battle Dance alone will be enough to keep the unit in an active role on the battlefield.
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  #144  
Old March 26th, 2019, 05:26 PM
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Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!

After some thinking on the discussion, I think we should finalize what our version of Ullar's Battle Dance should be going forward. For reference, the current power:

ULLAR'S BATTLE DANCE
After rolling defense dice for a figure that you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Listaria who follows Ullar, you may move another figure that you control who follows Ullar up to 4 spaces. If a figure moving with Ullar's Battle Dance is engaged when it starts to move, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Ullar's Battle Dance can only be used once per turn.

Major holes in this power are triggering off of special attacks, and lack of clarity as to whether our figure can trigger the power off of her own defense dice or use it to move herself. Possible updated version:

ULLAR'S BATTLE DANCE
After rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's figure for Listaria or a figure that you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Listaria who follows Ullar, you may move another figure that you control who follows Ullar up to 4 spaces. If a figure moving with Ullar's Battle Dance is engaged when it starts to move, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Ullar's Battle Dance can only be used once per turn. Listaria may move herself with this special power.

It's worth noting that, depending on the wording we use, we can adjust this in a number of ways, such as allowing attacks on this figure to trigger the power for other figures but not to move her, or vice-versa. And of course we could exclude this figure from the power altogether and leave it as a buff she gives to other figures.

A side note, while name isn't strictly important, it would be nice to start calling the figure something other than "this figure," so any suggestions on that front are welcome.

Finally, I think we should delve into core statline a little bit. Currently we have:

8 M
1 R
5 A
4 D
5 L

Of this spread, Move and Range are fine--I have a slight preference for 7 move as I don't think a wolf should quite equal a warhorse, but it's a mythical snow wolf so whatever. 5A 4D 5L strikes me as a bit too solid and consistent a spread for a figure that is this much of a cheerleader. My personal preference would be:

4 or 5 A
3 D
6 L

The high life number still gives respect to the figure's armored nature, but 3D will make them less frustrating to play against for low-attack units and more consistent to take down for opponents who want to deprive you of her bonuses. As for attack, I don't have a major problem with 5A, but I worry we might be pushing it too high in our efforts to make a hybrid unit. If a better option is usually your elf squads, then 5A is going to feel kind of out of place most of the time. This may be something we have to feel out in testing, though.

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