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  #265  
Old January 21st, 2009, 12:32 AM
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Re: NM24 - Process

First off, Holy Revival! It would be awesome if we could get this thing rolling again. I have updated the first post with Grey Owl's latest NM24 Batman card.

On to the card...
I don't have an answer for you, but I think the fact that the Fear Gas can affect every single member of a Common Squad when one of them gets hit seems a little wonky.

Also, I agree with GreyOwl in that 70 points for the ability to remove all Order Markers from an Army Card 30% of the time is quite a bargain. He becomes a no-brainer first Order Marker every round.

Also, to all that have enquired about participation on this thread, your insights are welcomed and encouraged. Please join in the discussions.

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  #266  
Old January 21st, 2009, 08:05 AM
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Re: NM24 - Process

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
My comments on Scarecrow: I think his cost is too low. His stats are exactly the same as Sudema. His ability is also fairly similar to Sudema. Sudema is somewhat more powerful with his ability to destroy, especially against squads, but Scarecrow has a greater range of effect. Every turn, he has a 30% chance of taking away all order markers for a given figure. But at half the cost of Sudema, I think Scarecrow is a little too low. If I had to guess without playing him, I would guess around 100-120.

Other than that, it looks good to me.
Well, his ability is ripped off of Dund, not Sudema, but I can sort of see what you're saying. The thing is, neither of those two are very well regarded figures, and my goal when I design customs is to have them hover somewhere in the B+ range when it comes to usefulness. Both Dund and Sudema are generally considered overcosted, so I don't use them as examples for costing my customs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago View Post
On to the card...
I don't have an answer for you, but I think the fact that the Fear Gas can affect every single member of a Common Squad when one of them gets hit seems a little wonky.

Also, I agree with GreyOwl in that 70 points for the ability to remove all Order Markers from an Army Card 30% of the time is quite a bargain. He becomes a no-brainer first Order Marker every round.
Yeah, my first ever version of Scarecrow had his ability limited to Unique Heroes (and rolling a 20 didn't kill the figure, either) for the same reason of wonkiness you mention, but then I noticed that Dund could affect an entire card with Paralyzing Stare despite only targeting one figure from the card. I revised it to more closely resemble Dund's ability, but you're right - thematically it doesn't seem right for Scarecrow to potentially affect, say, 16 squaddies who are scattered throughout the board just because he gassed one of them.

Thanks for the input, guys. How's this?

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  #267  
Old January 21st, 2009, 08:13 AM
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Re: NM24 - Process

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Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
How's this?
I think he looks about right for what you were trying to achieve. If you tidy the bricks from the far right of the card, I'll give it a thumb.
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  #268  
Old January 21st, 2009, 01:37 PM
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Scarecrow

Wow NM24 is back up and running, and somehow everyone is back!! I'm so excited. This place is busy again!!

SCARECROW
I reviewed my comments from the first time I saw this custom. Surprisingly I had the opposite reaction of everyone here, I said drop the points. Granted the card may have changed since then (I honestly don't remember), but even now I just don't see a 2/3 with 4 life being worth 95. Ok he is powerful, if you are lucky. A 20 he'll destroy the figure and 15+ removes Order Markers, but look at the comparison with Dund.

Dund - - - - - - - - - - - - Scarecrow
15+ removes OM - - - - - - 15+ removes OM
4 Life - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 Life
6 Move - - - - - - - - - - - - 5 Move
1 Range - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 Range
3 Attack - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 Attack
5 Defense - - - - - - - - - - - 3 Defense
110 Points - - - - - - - - - - - 95 Points

Now Scarecrow has 1 less move, 1 less attack, and 2 less defense. And he costs only 15 points less. Dund is considered overcosted and generally weak. I know Scarecrow can move before using Fear Gas and has a chance to kill the figure, but I feel like he will suffer from the high potential/low success rate that Dund, Moresbane, Sudema, etc. suffer. I guess the cost is factored in that they may be amazing in some games, but I think he could drop to 80 or at least 90. Just my opinion though and it looks like I'm outnumbered.

Also I know you want it to work on unique squads, but I don't know if it makes sense that he gases one and then another figure across the board can't move.

Lastly, 5 spaces might be kind of far for Scarecrow to conceivable spray his gas (5 is the range of some guns).

Especially if either of these suggestions are used, I would lower the cost.

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  #269  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 03:33 AM
Markb97402 Markb97402 is offline
 
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Re: NM24 - Process

i'm a bit in between on here. I think the range should be reduced to 4, and the cost i find to be about right. if i was gonna change it, i would put it a little higher maybe. but overall, except that the range seems a bit long, seems like a great card! heres hoping nm24 last long enough to do one of my cards! kinda gettin inspired to make some of the cards ive ben thinking about. (no Corsair yet? for shame!)

Just some thoughts about what i would like to see goalwise for nm24

1. Squads. I'd like to see a couple of squads make the process(hint hint my parademon troops). Squads get under represented in custom games, or at least mine.

2. this already occurred with batman/scarecrow, but i think shooting for some theming in the work would be nice. either on a kinda one for one basis, like the marvelscape set, or perhaps something like the justice league and foes.

3. I also think we should avoid characters that have successfully made it through the TNT or nm24 process(or any other group process that has existed). Though im sure most designers would like to see their particular Wolverine card go through the wringer, i think the goal of a variety of characters should be more important

personally, i think it would be sweet to do the x-men and foes of xmen, or the justice league and their various foes. justice league seems like its already got a good head start
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  #270  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 10:02 AM
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Re: Scarecrow

Well, it's been more than 24 hours since Scarecrow was nominated, but that didn't stop us from finishing off Batman, so I guess we can continue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1 View Post
Wow NM24 is back up and running, and somehow everyone is back!! I'm so excited. This place is busy again!!

SCARECROW
I reviewed my comments from the first time I saw this custom. Surprisingly I had the opposite reaction of everyone here, I said drop the points. Granted the card may have changed since then (I honestly don't remember), but even now I just don't see a 2/3 with 4 life being worth 95. Ok he is powerful, if you are lucky. A 20 he'll destroy the figure and 15+ removes Order Markers, but look at the comparison with Dund.

Dund - - - - - - - - - - - - Scarecrow
15+ removes OM - - - - - - 15+ removes OM
4 Life - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 Life
6 Move - - - - - - - - - - - - 5 Move
1 Range - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 Range
3 Attack - - - - - - - - - - - - 2 Attack
5 Defense - - - - - - - - - - - 3 Defense
110 Points - - - - - - - - - - - 95 Points

Now Scarecrow has 1 less move, 1 less attack, and 2 less defense. And he costs only 15 points less. Dund is considered overcosted and generally weak. I know Scarecrow can move before using Fear Gas and has a chance to kill the figure, but I feel like he will suffer from the high potential/low success rate that Dund, Moresbane, Sudema, etc. suffer. I guess the cost is factored in that they may be amazing in some games, but I think he could drop to 80 or at least 90. Just my opinion though and it looks like I'm outnumbered.

Also I know you want it to work on unique squads, but I don't know if it makes sense that he gases one and then another figure across the board can't move.

Lastly, 5 spaces might be kind of far for Scarecrow to conceivable spray his gas (5 is the range of some guns).

Especially if either of these suggestions are used, I would lower the cost.
The Dund comparison is exactly what I had in mind when I initially costed Scarecrow. Low-stat figures with a "high potential/low success rate" just shouldn't cost that much, in my opinion, which is why figures like Morsbane and Sudema get little love. (Dund on the other hand, would be fine if he could just use his ability after moving.)

I did want Scarecrow's ability to work on more than just Unique Heroes, since it didn't make sense that he couldn't use it on a Street Thug, for instance. So I've reimagined the ability entirely so that it doesn't involve those pesky Order Markers. I've also shortened its range, since the consensus (which I agree with) is that 5 spaces seems a bit far. Here's the new card:

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  #271  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 01:03 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

I think it sounds good. thumbs up. I'll print em up and use em this weekend
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  #272  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 05:27 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

Did the points go up to 95 and then back down to 75? Or did I miss something?
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  #273  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 05:36 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

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Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
Did the points go up to 95 and then back down to 75? Or did I miss something?
Nope, that's exactly what happened.
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  #274  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 06:49 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

but i think with the decreased range and the wording now allowing the cards to use non movement, non attack special abilities, 75 points seems about right.(unless he meant to not allow special abilites to be used at all, in which case i would have to withdraw my vote till it was closer to 95)
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  #275  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 08:30 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

I think the card should specify how many Fear markers Scarecrow starts with. Also keep in mind that even though you get them all back at the end of the round, it's possible for Scarecrow to take more than 3 turns in a round due to special abilities on other cards.
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  #276  
Old January 22nd, 2009, 08:46 PM
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Re: NM24 - Process

Boy, people used to do this in under 24 hours, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markb97402 View Post
but i think with the decreased range and the wording now allowing the cards to use non movement, non attack special abilities, 75 points seems about right.(unless he meant to not allow special abilites to be used at all, in which case i would have to withdraw my vote till it was closer to 95)
Actually, this brings up a good point about what is considered an attack in Heroscape. The way the wording was before, I could see arguments occuring about whether Braxa's Poison Breath or Sonlen's Dragon Swoop are technically "attacks." I've now replaced "cannot move or attack" with "cannot take a turn." Hopefully that should nip any such problems in the bud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl View Post
I think the card should specify how many Fear markers Scarecrow starts with. Also keep in mind that even though you get them all back at the end of the round, it's possible for Scarecrow to take more than 3 turns in a round due to special abilities on other cards.
Well, the Fear Markers don't exist to limit the amount of times Scarecrow can use the ability. They exist as a reminder of which figures are affected.

I've also changed the success numbers on the ability from 13-19 to 15-19. It more closely resembles Dund's chances of success and keeps a low-costed figure like Scarecrow from being a no-brainer counter to big guns like Silver Surfer.
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