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  #253  
Old February 4th, 2020, 06:35 AM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

I think part of it is that there's an incentive to engage him in order to shut down Trigger Man. And once you've engaged him, you're not attacking him from range. In order for Human Shield to work he has to A) be adjacent to someone else and B) be attacked from range. The rest of the dynamics don't necessarily support both of those things happening, since you're motivated to keep him out of the fray and your opponent is motivated to engage you, at which point they're not going to attack you from range, they'll just attack you with the engaged figure (why risk Human Shield?).

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  #254  
Old February 4th, 2020, 11:34 AM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

So here's what we're looking at;

MrNobody (older version @150)
1 win
3 losses

Archie
2 losses

Ronin
1 win
1 loss

Bats
2 wins

There were some fairly big wins but also some sizable losses too. Basically, what I'm getting is that he's good in specific armies, and more balanced in others. Skull+Penguin+Hired Guns is just a good build with or without him, but he slots in very well there.

I must admit, I'm kind of at a loss here. I like 160, because it makes him the perfect substitute for HYDRA Agents x2 in the now 1,000 pt Hydra build. I want to keep him there, if possible. He has 2 powers (Brutality and Human Shield) that I really like conceptually, but are hardly being used. So reducing their usefulness doesn't really seem like a smart option to nerf those powers even more. But it is also kind of bumming me out that they're barely being used.

The one idea I had was this;
Quote:
TRIGGER MAN
When attacking a non-adjacent figure with Crossbones's normal attack, if you did not reveal an Order Marker on Crossbones this turn, you may add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.
I feel like that would be a nerf in most situations, and I don't really see a thematic/mechanical reason why a double attack is needed here.

Any thoughts? I guess I'm just struggling to find the "correct" way forward at the moment. Honestly a bit torn between a few different ideals; keeping him at 160, having all his powers feel at least situationally useful, staying true to japes' original vision, etc.
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  #255  
Old February 4th, 2020, 11:53 AM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

I like that.
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  #256  
Old February 4th, 2020, 11:55 AM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Yeah, this is a tricky one. The problem is none of his powers work well together, and I'm not sure your suggested fix would change that.

Could you just drop the non-adjacent requirement from Trigger Man, then raise points a little? That would give him a reason to use Brutality, and being engaged to enemies means that Human Shield will come up more.

Edit - Maybe bump up the Human Shield roll too. I feel like I'd be more likely to shoot at Crossbones if the roll was 17+ instead of 12+. As-is, I'd probably just engage him because the risk of shooting my own guys is so high.
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  #257  
Old February 4th, 2020, 12:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

What about a nerf on Trigger Man and a bump to Human Shield - like somehow using it to let him disengage, or making it work on adjacent attacks, that sort of thing?
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  #258  
Old February 4th, 2020, 03:26 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

I was thinking that dropping the non-adj. clause in trigger man would be something to explore. It's not like he can't use a handgun at point blank range effectively. Then you wouldn't be encouraged to engage him, at least not with anyone he can brutalize.
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  #259  
Old February 4th, 2020, 04:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

I was kind of leaning in the same direction as Johnny; make his “best” ability less useful and his “worst” ability more useful. Hopefully it would keep the balance about the same while making him feel more multi-purpose. Keeping him at 160 is a pretty big goal for me.

I’d probably suggest something like;

TRIGGER MAN
-Adds a skull (or even just 2 attack dice) instead of a double attack
AND/OR
-Only works if Crossbones didn’t move this turn (making it feel more like a sniper rifle)

HUMAN SHIELD
-Works against melee attacks, but obviously you can’t choose the attacking figure to take the damage.
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  #260  
Old February 4th, 2020, 04:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Right now Trigger Man is directing his best army builds. You could depower it like you suggested and he'll probably be less appealing in tough army builds as a competitive figure, or you could make it stronger, by removing the non-adjacent qualifier, which would keep his best builds the same, but give more utility to his other two powers (because now he wants to be in engagement).

Maybe you should do both? Make Trigger Man an auto-skull on a single attack whether he's engaged or not? Probably keeps his cost about the same (I'd still argue for a bump up as is) and makes his other two powers more viable.

My personal preference would be to go with Trigger Man as is but no non-adjacent restriction (makes other powers more relevant) but then just to bump his cost by 20 points (well within his thematic range).

I say this because Trigger Man as is was fun to play and it was good enough to build around that exploit, which was fun - you just need to pay enough for it.

But I'm good with making both changes as well if that fits where the LD wants to go here.

Edit: but I like the double attack if didn't move thing with no non-adjacent restriction. I think that's a solid middle ground.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #261  
Old February 4th, 2020, 08:32 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
His damage was timely, though, and helped finish things off. It's not that he himself is that tough, but that he's a solid and cheap addition to already good things that makes their strengths stronger.
But that's my point...it doesn't look like those blowouts had anything to do with him and any other ranged figure would have cared just as well in that army. If the only way he makes his points is in an army with Penguin, then we have an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #262  
Old February 4th, 2020, 08:44 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
So here's what we're looking at;

MrNobody (older version @150)
1 win
3 losses

Archie
2 losses

Ronin
1 win
1 loss

Bats
2 wins

There were some fairly big wins but also some sizable losses too. Basically, what I'm getting is that he's good in specific armies, and more balanced in others. Skull+Penguin+Hired Guns is just a good build with or without him, but he slots in very well there.

I must admit, I'm kind of at a loss here. I like 160, because it makes him the perfect substitute for HYDRA Agents x2 in the now 1,000 pt Hydra build. I want to keep him there, if possible. He has 2 powers (Brutality and Human Shield) that I really like conceptually, but are hardly being used. So reducing their usefulness doesn't really seem like a smart option to nerf those powers even more. But it is also kind of bumming me out that they're barely being used.

The one idea I had was this;
Quote:
TRIGGER MAN
When attacking a non-adjacent figure with Crossbones's normal attack, if you did not reveal an Order Marker on Crossbones this turn, you may add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.
I feel like that would be a nerf in most situations, and I don't really see a thematic/mechanical reason why a double attack is needed here.

Any thoughts? I guess I'm just struggling to find the "correct" way forward at the moment. Honestly a bit torn between a few different ideals; keeping him at 160, having all his powers feel at least situationally useful, staying true to japes' original vision, etc.
160 is fine but 190 works as well

Skull, Srtucker, Madam Hydra, Crossbones, 4xhydra Agents I think is 1000.
Or drop 2 squads and bring Scientist Supreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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  #263  
Old February 4th, 2020, 08:54 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
160 is fine but 190 works as well

Skull, Srtucker, Madam Hydra, Crossbones, 4xhydra Agents I think is 1000.
Or drop 2 squads and bring Scientist Supreme.
Are you still counting Skull at 220?

Here's what I've been working with.
Skull -250
Strucker - 210
Madame H - 140
Crossbones -160
HYDRA Agents x3 - 240

TOTAL - 1,000
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  #264  
Old February 4th, 2020, 08:58 PM
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Re: The Book of Crossbones (Public Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNobody View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
160 is fine but 190 works as well

Skull, Srtucker, Madam Hydra, Crossbones, 4xhydra Agents I think is 1000.
Or drop 2 squads and bring Scientist Supreme.
Are you still counting Skull at 220?

Here's what I've been working with.
Skull -250
Strucker - 210
Madame H - 140
Crossbones -160
HYDRA Agents x3 - 240

TOTAL - 1,000
Shoot yeah...old habbits

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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