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  #385  
Old January 4th, 2021, 06:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

How are we feeling here? I've got the playtests up to date in the OP and there are a good number of them. Granted, with some changes along the way. Trying to get an estimate on the damage he inflicted on average, I came up with about 112 pts/game. He had a couple duds, and one where Mind Jack was absolutely monstrous. One thing to keep in mind is that even in games with very few if any successes, a single Mind Jack in a game could be a tipping point (or at the very least add to Tetsuo's total). On the flip side, I didn't take his self-wounding into account, though he occasionally managed to do 4+ wounds to himself (each one being ~18 points for the opponent). I think he's looking pretty good, but could probably use a couple more tests with the most recent version, since that's the one we'll need to make decisions on.


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  #386  
Old January 5th, 2021, 03:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Personally, I feel like Tetsuo clearly overwhelms the Mind Flayer Mastermind's niche. He's more frail, especially when taking Overclock into account, but the extra range is invaluable and Mind Jack is just outright better after taking two wounds. I have downvoted SoV units for this sort of thing before--obviously, he could use some more testing to ensure that this is the case (and if I was reviewing him right now, I wouldn't make that call just yet), but I think that it's a critical thing to note.

The fact that he is averaging ~110 points is also quite concerning (albeit without taking self-damage into account, which matters less than collateral friendly damage IMO). This is a high variance figure, and if he can reasonably expect to find his value via straight damage alone, then what about the times that he goes against a Hero army on a lava map?

I would support one of the following changes (ordered by my preference):
  1. Increase the points to 120
  2. Increase Mind Jack's base roll to 20
  3. Reduce range for Mind Jack to 4
  4. Reduce range for Mind Jack and normal attack to 4, add +1R to Overclock
#1 puts a bit more of a buffer between him and the Mind Flayer. I would still support much more testing to ensure that we aren't removing that figure's niche, but at least it feels like a bigger choice between the two. Looking at the stats, I could see an increase to 130 making sense just to put them more on the same level.

#2 makes the Mind Flayer more noticeable as a consistent alternative to Tetsuo, emphasizing their differences despite the similar price.

#3 is a relatively minor change to make Tetsuo a riskier investment with his glass jaw.

#4 adds a bit more complexity (which I'm not a fan of), but it places even more of an emphasis on Overclock and is a more extreme version of #3.

I'm fine with running additional tests for the OP version if that's what the majority prefers, but from the games that I've played and read, I think that it's clear that something will need to change here.
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  #387  
Old January 5th, 2021, 04:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Another thing you could potentially do is if he's stepping on the MF's toes is change it to remove an Order Marker on a D20 roll instead, or potentially interrupting an enemy attack once per round. Something like:

MIND JACK
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and after moving, you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, you may remove 1 unrevealed Order Marker on that figure's Army Card. This special power may only be used once per round.

Or

MIND JACK
If an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo targets a figure you control for a normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, that figure may not attack this turn. This special power may only be used once per round.

Just throwing out ideas. I know there is a lot of playtests here already and probably not what you guys want to do, but if he's just a better MF it could always be worth having a different power.
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  #388  
Old January 7th, 2021, 03:41 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I was running a series of games today with my girlfriend, so I went ahead and ran another game with the version of Tetsuo in the OP against my Yokai.

CUSTOM MAP:
Spoiler Alert!

500 Points
Glyphs: Knowledge, Recall, Healing
Dawn: Abe no Seimei, Masha Shingai, Kincho, Nure Onna (unposted revision for 20 points), Kirin
Astro: Tetsuo Tyrell, Marrden Hounds x4, Guilty McCreech

SURVIVING UNITS:
8x Marrden Hounds, Guilty McCreech
~270 Points Left

GAME SUMMARY:
Spoiler Alert!

POWER USAGE:
Tetsuo dealt two wounds to Masha. I didn't Overclock this time because Masha was so near death and the Fiery Retribution would've just increased my chances. 12/19 to Mind Jack Nure Onna (would've ran her away to prevent the Kirin from switching into my battlefield).
Overclocked against the Kirin and dealt 2 wounds. 20/18, basically tied down the Kirin for the rest of the game to push the game almost entirely in my favor.
Overclocked against the Kirin but dealt no wounds. 13/17
Overclocked against the Kirin and dealt 1 wound. 14/16
Overclocked against the Kirin but dealt no wounds. 8/15
He Overclocked against Seimei for 2 wounds. 1/14 to Mind Jack the Kirin.
He got no turns in the next round (he was at 5/6 wounds) and was finished off by Seimei.

Total Damage Dealt: 186 Points of Raw Damage
Dealt 5 wounds to himself for ~92 points of self-damage. Less impactful than friendly damage, though, since it was just reducing the number of attacks that he could've absorbed (which wouldn't have been many here).
Wasted 2-3 turns of Dawn's with one successful Mind Jack, mostly sealing the win by tying down the Kirin

THOUGHTS:
Tetsuo was viable just for his outright damage from Overclocking, and the Hounds were an effective screen with their 5 defense to keep him nice and secure in the process. A single Mind Jack was enough to basically seal the game (without lava) in my favor by tying down the Kirin, Dawn's main attacker, with enough engagements that it never recovered.

I think that Tetsuo is in need of changes as I have outlined earlier.

Last edited by Astroking112; January 7th, 2021 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Added points of self-damage dealt.
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  #389  
Old January 8th, 2021, 08:13 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I think I'd like #4 on your list, unless there's thoughts that'll make them too complex for the level of simplicity we've been wanting in the set.
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  #390  
Old January 9th, 2021, 04:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

The main detractor for #4 is that it's the most complicated change, IMO. Overclock right now is very simple, which is a nice contrast to Mind Jack's complexity.

That said, I think that adding a +1 range boost isn't that much more complicated than what we have now, and I think that reducing the range of Mind Jack to 4 would be a big help in making him more comparable to the Mind Flayer.
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  #391  
Old January 15th, 2021, 05:37 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I don't think it's quite that bad in terms of complexity, but we can try it.
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  #392  
Old January 15th, 2021, 05:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I would be fine with making that change immediately for further testing. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that change or any of the other ideas?
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  #393  
Old January 16th, 2021, 12:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I haven't been to concerned with him overshadowing the Mindflayer. He's Unique, has a normal ranged attack, can't remove OMs, and even though Mind Jack has more range it's only as good as Enslave on average across different wound values. Given the above, as long as his cost is appropriate I don't have an issue.

That said, I'll vote yea on testing that change.


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  #394  
Old January 21st, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Pinging the other members of Pod 0 to check their thoughts on the proposed changes to Tetsuo. @All Your Pie @flameslayer93 @capsocrates

In essence, we've been talking about how he feels a little too good in comparison to the Mind Flayer Mastermind, despite them sharing a similar niche. There are a variety of suggestions for how to fix this problem in this page, but PK, NB, and I are in support of the following changes to the OP (highlighted in red):

Quote:
VYDAR
NAME Tetsuo Tyrell
Species Human
Unique Hero
Class Neuromancer
Personality Tricky
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5 / BASIC 5
RANGE 5 4 / BASIC 5
ATTACK 3 / BASIC 4
DEFENSE 2 / BASIC 5

110 POINTS

OVERCLOCK
Before attacking with Tetsuo Tyrell, you may place a wound marker on this Army Card to add 2 to his Attack value and 1 to his Range value.

MIND JACK 19
When revealing an Order Marker on Tetsuo Tyrell, after taking his turn, you may choose any opponent's Unique Hero figure within 5 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo. Roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen Hero and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All Order Markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.

Last edited by Astroking112; January 31st, 2021 at 07:23 PM. Reason: Swapped out "number" for "value" to keep wording consistent.
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  #395  
Old January 24th, 2021, 01:59 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

That looks good to me, AK.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #396  
Old January 31st, 2021, 06:57 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Poking in here to see if we can update OP
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