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  #7105  
Old January 20th, 2021, 03:17 AM
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Astroking112 Astroking112 is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
I'm getting hung up on the choose two figures/roll attack dice for both clause of the SA. Mechanically it's fine, but it seems like a thematic break to me. If I'm targeting two figures who would share figures affected by the SA (either by being adjacent to both, or just choosing two figures adjacent to each other) then why do they only get hit once? It doesn't really make sense thematically, and the mechanics, while new, aren't interesting enough to justify the thematic break IMO.
There are definitely strong mechanical reasons for why M.A.R.S. can't double dip on targets. I frankly found that it plays better if each target can only be hit once (this makes him much more susceptible to engagement with one figure, lowers his overall ceiling considerably, makes his bonuses often mitigable by smart placement, and lessens his offensive reliability). Changing it to be an explosion attack that he can just use twice would have a lot of unpleasant effects.

Thematically, it sounds like you're envisioning two separate missile launches. The original inspiration was actually that M.A.R.S. locks on to several targets and then releases the barrage simultaneously, so he can't lock on to the same targets more than once. This is a fairly obscure video game mechanic, though, so I get that it might not come across as well.

If you're instead talking about the combined force of two nearby explosions being stronger than just one, then I'm not sure that it's worth replicating the mechanical effects of that interaction instead of keeping it simple.
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  #7106  
Old January 20th, 2021, 03:04 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I can see the confusion, I was also envisioning 2 missile s that exploded for splash damage. Maybe a different name could communicate the theme better like Hellfire Missiles?
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  #7107  
Old January 20th, 2021, 03:18 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

It doesn't bother me at all that figures aren't double-hit. No more than the fact that direct targets of explosion attacks aren't affected any more than the splash targets.

I still have real concerns about the Deathwalker 9000 comparison, but it is true that the DWs aren't the same units they were pre-VC. I'm willing to give M.A.R.S. a try and see how it feels, though I think there's a good change it will fail UF Review.

to review M.A.R.S.
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  #7108  
Old January 23rd, 2021, 04:04 PM
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BiggaBullfrog BiggaBullfrog is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
I can see the confusion, I was also envisioning 2 missile s that exploded for splash damage. Maybe a different name could communicate the theme better like Hellfire Missiles?
Oh you mean like groups of mini missiles that are striking all around the target instead of two explosive ones? That would make a lot more sense thematically. I actually like that. Was that the intent @Astroking112 (seemed like in your post you're still talking about a two-missile barrage instead of a many-mini-missile barrage (which, side note, is super fun to say ) but maybe that's what you were getting at).
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  #7109  
Old January 23rd, 2021, 06:32 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

"Two missiles" is what I was thinking as well, which is why I felt he was stepping on DW's toes.
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  #7110  
Old January 23rd, 2021, 07:33 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
I can see the confusion, I was also envisioning 2 missile s that exploded for splash damage. Maybe a different name could communicate the theme better like Hellfire Missiles?
Oh you mean like groups of mini missiles that are striking all around the target instead of two explosive ones? That would make a lot more sense thematically. I actually like that. Was that the intent @Astroking112 (seemed like in your post you're still talking about a two-missile barrage instead of a many-mini-missile barrage (which, side note, is super fun to say ) but maybe that's what you were getting at).
Yeah, that was my original idea behind the power (the mini has two missile launcher containers on either side with very small missiles poking out). Personally, I visualize two swarms of smaller missiles rather than just two big ones, albeit it's easier to refer to the mechanic as a double explosion for its associated HeroScape mechanics.

It is worth noting that the original power name was actually Missile Barrage Special Attack, which probably conveys that aspect of the theme a bit better than Guided Missiles Special Attack. The only reason that I changed it back then was due to some concern in the previous submission about being able to hit targets in opposite directions--I don't have any strong ties to the current name of the Special Attack.
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  #7111  
Old January 23rd, 2021, 11:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
I can see the confusion, I was also envisioning 2 missile s that exploded for splash damage. Maybe a different name could communicate the theme better like Hellfire Missiles?
Oh you mean like groups of mini missiles that are striking all around the target instead of two explosive ones? That would make a lot more sense thematically. I actually like that. Was that the intent @Astroking112 (seemed like in your post you're still talking about a two-missile barrage instead of a many-mini-missile barrage (which, side note, is super fun to say ) but maybe that's what you were getting at).
Yeah, that was my original idea behind the power (the mini has two missile launcher containers on either side with very small missiles poking out). Personally, I visualize two swarms of smaller missiles rather than just two big ones, albeit it's easier to refer to the mechanic as a double explosion for its associated HeroScape mechanics.

It is worth noting that the original power name was actually Missile Barrage Special Attack, which probably conveys that aspect of the theme a bit better than Guided Missiles Special Attack. The only reason that I changed it back then was due to some concern in the previous submission about being able to hit targets in opposite directions--I don't have any strong ties to the current name of the Special Attack.
Gotcha, thanks for straightening that out for me! (That does sound familiar now from the last time now that you bring it up.) I like that visual a lot and can get behind it. I'm not sure it requires a name change (if I'm the only one who was confused then probably not), so I won't hold it up here based off that.

There are still the concerns with the DW9K comparison, but I'm okay with keeping a critical eye on that during testing. For now I'm comfortable enough with it to give it an
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  #7112  
Old January 24th, 2021, 01:17 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'm very excited to see MARS submitted! That figure has been in my collection waiting for action for some time. Here's hoping it makes it past review. Thanks for taking the time to create it. It looks like a solid submission.
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  #7113  
Old January 24th, 2021, 01:55 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'm an to review MARS, but I think his odds of failing at each point in the process are relatively high.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #7114  
Old January 24th, 2021, 02:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Just curious, what sort of changes would increase those chances?
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  #7115  
Old January 25th, 2021, 11:05 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

M.A.R.S. has received 4 Yea votes to review (superfrog, Scytale, BiggaBullfrog, and capsocrates) and moves forward in the process.
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  #7116  
Old January 27th, 2021, 01:16 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I would like to nominate my custom Wulfing Hunters for SoV review.
- - - - - - -

[SIZE="4"]WULFING HUNTERS


The figures used are #001 and #014 from D&D ICEWIND DALE: RIME OF THE FROSTMAIDEN.

CHARACTER BIO:
Spoiler Alert!


CARD TEXT:
Spoiler Alert!


-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received
  • ARKTOS: HUNTER ATTACK ENHANCEMENT
    As Hunters the Wulfing Hunters can can benefit from Arktos' Hunter Attack Enhancement.

Synergy Benefits Offered
  • ARKTOS: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Arktos using Hunter's Howl.
  • Dünd: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Dünd using Hunter's Howl.
  • Feral Troll: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Feral Troll using Hunter's Howl.
  • Master of the Hunt: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Master of the Hunt using Hunter's Howl.
  • Shadow Hound: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Shadow Hound using Hunter's Howl.
  • Van Nessing: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Van Nessing using Hunter's Howl.
  • Himmelskralle: HUNTERS' HOWL
    As a Hunter Hero you can activate Himmelskralle using Hunter's Howl.

BALANCE

This two man squad has some interesting tricks and playability. Some of the things that usually hold a 2 man squad back are: activations, development, falling behind when your figures die. This squad addresses these issues with an appropriate power level by bringing a unique style of play to the table that validates the current meta in almost every way (except for 4th Mass having a flowchart). They have a similar power level to other 2 man squads but have a different way of achieving it because their 2 powers are highly situational and require either a certain matchup or a decent amount of risk in order to make full use of them.

The primary and persistent balance concern that has been brought up with them stems from Hunter synergy, namely Himmelskralle. I have 14 games of recorded test data that can be found and appropriately labeled on my Heroscapers' blog along with an additional 12 games of testing data that are unrecorded due to their casual setting. In all of my tests Himmel has shown herself to be more of a liability in most cases and playing the Wulfing adds little to what she already would be doing, except that you risk her being within range of most ranged unit with no guarantee that you'll be able to bond with her. This coupled with the fact that my Hunter bonding synergy has limitation on not only how to activate it but on what Hunter Hero can be activated. The requirement for the Hunter Hero that you bond with needing to be unengaged gives the opponent an active play to deny her activation and it also means that if the stars align for Himmel that you will have to decide how far you want to press your advantage and if you really want to keep attacking or risk having her stranded, unactivateable and easily surrounded unless you split your order markers.

An interesting note is that they seem to plateau in success after a certain point value because at 25 points a figure most armies will just have more hexes than you to begin with and their activations will make life difficult unless you can make full use of your bonding ability (which means sometimes you will choose to engage but not attack with your 2 Wulfing) or your lack of hitzones while isolated.

Their statlines are thematic to their class of Hunter without being game breaking, I originally designed them as a carbon copy of Arktos and then compared their stats to other 2 man squads and figures at their price point (25 points a pop) and adjusted them early on in playtesting to arrive at the product we have now. 6 move is quick and communicates their expertise in movement, they are melee units so 1 range is a given, 3 attack and 3 defense seems to be a standard that a lot of units either stick by otherwise you are considered too weak to be offensive and too fragile to survive. It stands to reason that fierce hunters from the frozen north would be able to dish out some hurt, they would also have thick furs and cloth to help deter some of the damage (cloth armor and furs have been historically used as armor to great effect, check out the youtube channel Shadiversity if you are interested in the topic).

If you want to talk about any of their interactions you may see as a potential issue with their bonding ability or their stalker ability; I have all my data ready to go, it's recorded in my Heroscaper's blog and appropriately labeled with dates, maps, glyphs, die roll percentages and a decent amount of information on playtesting.

PLAYABILITY

The Wulfing do great on the battlefield, while they can only develop as two man units they have the ability to spread out on the board and play safe with a combination of their 6 move, pretty standard in the Hunter class, and their Silent Stalker ability which keeps them safe from ranged normal and special attacks but still lets them easily be destroyed by a variety of special powers and attacks that don't check for hitzones.

They have quite a few options to bring for an army, they are cheap enough to splash as a portion of your army either alone to take advantage of their self bonding or with one Arktos who give them a boost and a nice ranged bonding option. They struggle against 4 man bonding squads like you would expect unless you have developed enough or have the pleasure of fighting from your start zone where you can engage multiple figures with your initial 2 Wulfing, attack and hopefully succeed to get your Howl activation for 2 more Wulfing or a fun Hunter Hero to try and stave off the Knights, Orcs, or whatever you happen to be facing.

During all my tests it was noted that the army they should have a decent matchup against would be the 4th Mass due to denying hitzones and not allowing them to have a ton of wait then fire opportunities. This is because the 4th don't typically run a screen and don't have the benefit of screening themselves like the 10th Regiment, or any other ranged army that would typically bring a screen. Despite having unique mechanics and choices presented by the limitations on their bonding ability the Wulfing don't have any noted advantages or success against any top tier Armies except the 4th Mass where they just make the game a little closer but still lose out due to being a more expensive unit with less activations in most cases.

People like Dysole, Cleon, Chris Perkins and Astroking have all gotten a chance to play a game with the Hunters in it and haven't noted them to be stepping outside their power bracket but in most cases to present interesting choices in gameplay as opposed to a linear style. (See 4th Mass)

CREATIVITY

There are a few ways to do bonding in Heroscape, obviously straight up Hunter bonding with a hero from a squad is not desired because it is a bland and unfitting way to approach such a colorful and diverse class as the Hunters. Here we have a synergy that requires some investment, has the stipulation that the Hunter Hero has to be unengaged (ready to start a new hunt as it were) and there is an option to turn the 2 man squad into a 4 man squad which has some great outcomes if you have developed or chosen the battle conditions properly. In most cases Hunters Howl will have you just developing 2 additional Wulfing, only bringing in a Hunter when they can execute a ranged attack or gain height in a safe area. The most fun Hunters to play with this unit have been Arktos, Van Nessing and Master of the Hunt with Dund presenting some fun options as well.

The bonding option also makes Shadow Hound something that can be brought back into the mix, not entirely optimal but viable and still thematic for what is happening.

The defensive ability takes away their hitzones and gives them a reliable option against ranged, early game mostly until a screen is set up, but it makes both players play in a different way where the Wulfing player wants to evacuate their start zone and not clump up when it is relevant and the opponent realizing that they have to choose the point of engagement for their screen with some thought. (Unless you have deathreavers, then these guys just get destroyed )

THEME

These guys embody the theme of Hunters from the frozen north really well from all the feedback and exposure that they have gotten. The miniatures themselves are great, perfect size to go next to a Knight of Weston, with furs and skull masks that make them look like an interesting tribal sort of character. I choose Grut for their homeworld so that I could make them a reclusive humanoid variant, not quite human so I don't have to worry about any human synergies if I ever make a hero to go with them.

Their name is historical, look up Wulfing Norse Clan and you will find that it was a name for a Norse clan mentioned in the Beowulf saga which has historical significance outside of the story. They definitely fit in alongside the frozen north scenario where they would be hunting in deep snow, thick forests and dealing with dangerous creatures on the daily. The Hunters' Howl is mean to communicate two hunters finding an enemy, creature or prey that they cannot bring down immediately so either from needing backup or from excitement they would Howl loudly, echoing through the forests so that more of their Tribe could answer the call or one of the Heroes that would join the "Hunt." Silent Stalkers is meant to communicate how you would actually go about hunting with a spear or a hand too, while my closest experience is modern hunting with a variety of implements the idea that while "stalking" you have a requirement to be silent and invisible to your prey is pretty easy to wrap your head around. This means that you also can't be in a large party, clumped up, making noise and drawing attention to yourself because you have to pass quietly, quickly and unobserved which can't be done either while you are with others or while you are in combat.

I am flexible on there species and their homeworld, that can definitely change if it is tripping someone up hardcore so don't let that be a reason to not consider the unit.

AVAILABILITY

As of my last check the availability for these miniatures was good, they are both common figures released by Wizkids within the last 6 months (september 2020) and are still in print. I know we don't like to consider Ebay listing, even Ebay stores that have been around for a good few years but I like the Kings of Light source for this miniature because you can buy 3 at a time. Due to the nature of their mechanics and balance I don't suggest you will ever need more than 6 squads (6 of each figure) if you wanted to run a full army of this unit in conjunction with their heroes.

Nomad with Cage

CoolStuff Inc. - 8
Troll and Toad - 8
Miniature Market - 140~
Beholder the Bargains - 2
Neverlandgames - 1
Auggies - 16
Mahoney's Gaming Emporium - 4
Magicmanmini - 10
Lingster Games - 7
rpgminihunter - 10
Nobleknight - 8
RPGlocker - 9
Suncitygames - 4
Over the Brick - 17
Nerdverse - 7
Substantially more on Ebay stores (KingsofLight)


Nomad with Spear

CoolStuff Inc. - 8
Troll and Toad - 0
Miniature Market - 100~
Beholder the Bargains - 1
Neverlandgames - 1
Auggies - 2
Mahoney's Gaming Emporium - 2
Magicmanmini - 6
Lingster Games - 6
rpgminihunter - 8
Nobleknight - 2
RPGlocker - 0
Suncitygames - 0
Over the Brick - 12
Nerdverse - 6
Substantially more on Ebay stores (KingsofLight)

Thanks for looking, I hope to get these guys through the process with whatever changes or suggestions need to happen.

Last edited by Shiftrex; March 3rd, 2021 at 05:39 PM.
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