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  #145  
Old December 23rd, 2020, 08:59 AM
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Smile Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Personally, I think there is a huge well of potential for a fish-person. Sadly, I do not believe we are realizing that potential. First off, in the very beginning people wanted a healer and began to drive the design of the figure towards that. My problem with this is that Kiora is the only merfolk/nymph/mermaid/Atlantlean/siren/whatever character we may ever get, and as a result she will be the sole water character who isn't savage like the Sahuagin Raider or unintelligent like the Water Elemental. And instead of trying to characterize her by her relation to the sea and visualize what kind of character she is, we ended up trying to make a healer with a few things relating to water.

What is most disappointing about this, is that there are multiple figures who can be healers. Jace V1, Nissa, Arlynn, Avacyn, and Liliana (you might be scratching your head, but remember that Heroscape is about creativity and thinking outside the box). Yet, Kiora is the one that has to be a healer. For no reason other than we need one. The idea of intelligent life below the sea has been around since we were first exposed to the water. And because of that we have an infinite pool of ideas to inspire a new design for Heroscape, one deeply rooted in mythology or merely taking a few notes from the past.

We can have a character with a variety of abilities and traits. Water manipulation, Singing (like a siren), Commanding sea-life like (Aquaman does), drowning people, and various forms of magic. All of these can be used to make a good figure who is both characterized by their relation to water and is thematic with interesting abilities.

That's another thing I want to talk about, theme and character. Many want this to be Durnipa, but I don't see why. Some say that she has golden armor, but it's actually a shell or a weird amalgamation of shells (just look at Kiora's art) and the same goes for her trident-like weapon. The other point is that she is a character we don't know about and we could always use more character from the lore, which I agree with. But ultimately I think we can get an even better character if she was a more original character. Right now people are settling for a royal priestess who is either kind of a loner (stoic and inscrutable) or a hopeful figure like Raelin (inspiring and confident), but we already have some of those (Kelda and Empress Kiova). The other, while interesting, is nothing compared to a figure is the ocean (metaphorically). Sirens, kelpie, kappa, and other creatures were used to show the dangers of water, but other figures like Nymphs, Atlanteans, etc. were used to show the beauty of water. Water has a certain duality, it is vast and unpredictable, but it also has a certain sense of freedom and magnificence. It allows us to be free from the land and go wherever, but it is also dangerous and we (as land mammals) aren't meant to survive out there. That is water, that is the rivers, the lakes, the oceans. Kiora could be just like that, a cunning (insert class or title here) who is tricky and has an interesting playstyle that isn't just heal and bring water. She can have a certain duality.

If you guys continue to make her a healer, I wish you at least think about that. A figure who represents the beauty of water by healing and the danger by doing something else that is very useful in a game of Scape would be great. I know I am not some big important guy guy in the community, but I'd like to share my 2 cents, or in this case a full dollar. In most other AotV threads someone else says what I think and or feel. But nobody here had brought up any of the things I thought, so I just wanted to voice my thoughts.

Best of luck to Pod 2, I hope we can get a real cool unit out of this!
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  #146  
Old December 27th, 2020, 03:28 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I think I'm definitely leaning towards her not being Durnipia now. As for whether she should heal - I play WoW, water has a strong healing association for me, so the theme of it doesn't bother me. We could probably use Avacyn as a backup for a healer, that could be good. But I'll wait to see what others say RE: Kiora as healer.
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  #147  
Old December 27th, 2020, 09:29 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Thank you for the great feedback GreatPlainsKnight! It's really appreciated to hear your support, suggestions, and interest!

A lot of good points made in your post. Whilst I do agree that there is a lot of potential for merfolk and a lot of sources to pull unique ideas from, healers are a rare occurrence in Heroscape, with just 5 existing if you include C3V/SoV, and this one is a unique one compared to the others by being able to heal multiple heroes. Water has a strong association with healing in a lot of media (so much so that it has it's own TV Tropes page), and on top of this I think this mini allows for the most unique healer amongst the figures within the project by associating the healing with water.

Something to bare in mind as well is that the project is aiming to design units for new players using these AotP sets as their first sets. Pure water manipulation is tricky to implement due to a lack of it on the boards, and simplicity in design is preferred in order to introduce new players, whilst still bringing new things to the table for veteran players. Sea-life command is also difficult to implement due to a lack of it like you mentioned already with other water-based designs. The singing I do like though! The Roilmage mini is waiting in the back too and has the potential to focus on some of the other elements you've suggested.

I think I've mentioned it before but I actually wouldn't be upset if the water creation was put onto the Roilmage (seeing as it's base literally has tides coming off it), and replacing it on this mini with a singing ability, as that would create a duality in it's design that you suggested. Maybe it could be a special attack, a distractive ability, or something else entirely. This mini is arguably one of the most unique figures in the box when put next to Heroscape. She has so much design potential that you could make several designs depending on what aspect of the mini, lore, fantasy, or mythology you want to lean on, and it's important to choose an aspect and stick to it, otherwise the design will go through iteration after iteration. In her current state she has a lot of potential to be a stand out figure, especially in a unique builds such as the elves, Talingul + Constructs, or a Ranjit build when he releases.

I do agree with you regarding Durnipia. I'm not a big fan of her being Durnipia for multiple reasons and would love her to be her own thing, but it's also not a deal breaker for me. Again this is such a stand out mini being an aquatic mini that to make her a pre-existing character for a reference would be a shame in my opinion.

I'd love her to stay a healer personally, healers are rare in Heroscape and they are often not super useful to begin with, but this design fills a unique niche in her healing potential, as well as the other support she brings.
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  #148  
Old December 29th, 2020, 06:14 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Map: Ruined Pier
Glyphs: Glyph of Wannock, Whetstone of Venom

Army 1: Durnipia, Talingul, Augamo, Boreos, Lilja (565 points)
Army 2: Honor Guard of the Blasted Lands x3, Warden 816, Motley Max, Raelin (ROTV), Marro Warriors, Marcu Esenwein (570 points)

Version used
Spoiler Alert!


Which units survived?

Warden 816, Raelin, 1 Honor Guard, 4 Marro Warriors, Marcu with 3 wounds.

Turn by turn brief
Spoiler Alert!


How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Durnipia was pretty idle but decently fun, felt a lot like a Kyrie level of supportive presence. She managed to heal Lilja for 2 wounds (drastically increasing her uptime, allowing her to deal with a lot of Honor Guards), and healed Talingul for a wound, effectively healing about 52 points worth. I feel that if Augamo hadn’t fluffed his defense rolls and fallen so quickly, Durnipia could of kept him going just like she did Lilja, because the pod they were in was pretty secure with Augamo completely blocking the passageway. The Honor Guards also got a lot of crazy rolls, and their Arc Lances helped seal a lot of wounds. It went pretty downhill the moment Augamo fell and figures could start getting to Durnipia and Talingul.

Durnipia’s water did not get used much sadly, it was relatively non-factor having so little water to traverse on the map, and she rolled above 15 for all her rolls where she did heal. As of right now Durnipia feels to be in an okay spot at 80. Sure she can heal more figures, but it’s weaker than Kelda and a harder D20. On top of this she is slower than Kelda and lacks the flight. I feel like for this point range I would of been better off with Raelin, given the same range aura, points, and lack of turns to use her support. From that one game alone, she felt like a mix of Kelda and Raelin, but weaker than both in their specific roles.
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  #149  
Old December 31st, 2020, 04:22 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Ruined Pier
Glyphs: Glyph of Wannock, Talisman of Defense

Army 1: Durnipia, Ulginesh, Haduc, Arkmer, Emirroon, Johrdawn, Bol (570 points)
Army 2: Nottingham Brigand x5, Elaria the Pale, Cormin the Dark, Kha, Eldgrim, Goblin Cutters x3 (565 points)

Version used
Spoiler Alert!


Which units survived?

Bol, Durnipia with 3 wounds, Ulginesh with 2 wounds.

Turn by turn brief
Spoiler Alert!


How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Spoiler Alert!
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  #150  
Old January 1st, 2021, 05:03 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Ruined Pier
Glyphs: Glyph of Wannock, Ring of Protection

Army 1: Durnipia, Red Skull (Hasbro), Fen Hydra, Migol Ironwill, Stilt-Man (C3G)
Army 2: Cal the Smuggler, Kaemon Awa, Raelin 1, Me-Burq-Sa, Vishania (by Astroking112), Mantis (C3G)

Version used
Spoiler Alert!


Which units survived?

Red Skull with no wounds

Turn by turn brief
Spoiler Alert!


How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

This was by no means a serious game, mixing Marvel/C3G with classic/VC and one of Astroking’s customs, so consider this test with multiple grains of salt. It was purely a heroes only game with the intent of using some random and lesser used minis. The aim of Durni's team was to see how well she worked with multiple sturdier characters.

That being said, Durni got 9 activations and healed 5 wounds (3 from Migol, 2 from Red Skull), as well as dealing 2 wounds to Cal. This totals to 142 points in heals and 24 in damage. The game had a lot of idol moments, where heroes were set up to control areas and neither person wanted to budge in fear of losing a key piece, which caused a lot of opportunities for Durni to heal. Durni also failed a lot of heals, should she have succeeded more than more turns could of gone to other characters. And with Stilt-Man and Fen Hydra killed pretty quickly, Durnipia did not get much of a chance to heal them. Despite this her healing was vital during this game, without it Migol would not of been able to pull off the 4 wound attack on Mantis which ultimately led to the win.
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  #151  
Old January 3rd, 2021, 01:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

Thanks for the tests, @Skinderella ! Glad to see it looks like this version feels better to use than what's currently in the OP.

At this point, I feel like it could be helpful to decide as a pod whether we want to proceed with my proposed revisions to her abilities
Spoiler Alert!
with the understanding that the leftbox stats are essentially placeholders until we have the designs mechanical direction really nailed down.

The other idea that has been proposed has been giving her normal attack a range of 4, both to match the range of her healing aura, make her more distinct from Kelda and Ana, and increase the number of ranged figures in the Master Set. I personally think this change would improve the design and would like to hear what the rest of the pod thinks.

Also, at this point is it safe to say that we're out of Public Feedback and back in Design for the time being?
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  #152  
Old January 3rd, 2021, 07:53 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I'd say that point is now. Flame?

As I mentioned in discord I'm definitely leaning towards making her her own thing with these mechanics - plus or minus a weak ranged attack.
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  #153  
Old January 3rd, 2021, 07:55 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I like those revisions (I do have some rules concerns/questions about Carried by Waves v2, but I trust that they'll get sorted out in Editing). The update to Healing Waters to allow for healing figures on land spaces feels like an especially good change to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous
Also, at this point is it safe to say that we're out of Public Feedback and back in Design for the time being?
I'm pretty sure that the official Public Feedback duration expired a while ago, so it'd be perfectly fine if Pod 2 wants to move this one back to Design to discuss and formalize the changes. Once y'all are happy with the unit, one of the Pod 2 Leaders can propose a vote to move forward to Editing.

EDIT: 'd by Pumpkin_King.
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  #154  
Old January 4th, 2021, 12:55 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I like this power set and I would vote yes for bringing her range up to four, especially since I had the epithany the other day that she could be using her staff like a tuning fork and directing things via sound waves. Not that we have to go with that for lore but it made the character click a lot more thematically in my mind given that she is holding a Bident and doing this AoE healing.

Weird head canon but it's where I'm viewing the figure at. I'd love to see a range of four, tightens the design up for me and then we can eventually start to examine the left box. As for the points, I could see 90 in my mind because not a lot of armies play with a lot of heroes and she currently has no abuseable synergy that I'm seeing.
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  #155  
Old January 4th, 2021, 03:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I've been pretty vocal about giving her a ranged attack at the cost of lowering her attack to 2. It'd allow her to be more than heals, and would turn her into a more supportive Sonlen, whilst lowering her attack would stop her from being too offensively strong.

Would definitely like to see her as her own thing as opposed to being Durnipia. And for her points, I can see her going up a little bit. She's not too powerful, just a decent option in hero builds. The only time I think she'll be abusable is in Marvel games or huge point games.
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  #156  
Old January 8th, 2021, 09:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Public Feedb

I'm definitely open to her having a ranged attack!
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