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HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


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  #13  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 10:49 PM
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Hey Rev, that is a very well thought out and rather inspiring post. Thanks!!! It is a relief to read posts like this admist the juvenile rantings sometimes encountered in online forums. Thanks for reminding me about the Importance of HS!
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  #14  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 11:06 PM
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The Rev is awesome. Any post by him is worth reading and then reading twice. Nuff said.
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  #15  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 11:11 PM
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Heroscape will never get old! Can we hook our pinky's together and promise that?

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  #16  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 11:25 PM
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Re: The Importance of HeroScape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
And, second, HeroScape, if let loose, like an Andromeda virus, will take over the whole world. I’m waiting for that to happen.
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  #17  
Old June 3rd, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzie Fuzz
Huzza! I applaud you, Rev! That has got to be the best post I've ever seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
This means two things: First, HeroScape will never get old. Even if new units (may heaven forbid) ceased today, the game would continue to be new and to evolve, not in it’s written rules, but in the living play of the game.
Yes. Customs will never stop. House rules will never stop. And beyond that, it will never cease to bring up new questions, give new answers, show off new combinations which work well, etc.
I wholeheartedly agree. As long as Hasbro avoids power creep, I can see this as a game that could potentially never end. Heck, even if Hasbro stops churning out the waves, this game will never end, if not officially,.

Congrats, btw, on joining the 1k post club Fuzzie.


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  #18  
Old June 4th, 2007, 12:23 AM
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Fuzzie Fuzz

Gimme a break!

I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane.
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  #19  
Old June 4th, 2007, 01:10 AM
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I love the infinite possibilities of Heroscape Revdyer! I tend to burn myself out on hobbies and/or games by spending so much thought time on them. After I feel like I've imagined every possible outcome or variation, I become bored and move onto the next thing. I don't see that happening in Heroscape, amazingly enough.

When my tournament was approaching a couple weeks ago, I was running through army composition after army composition trying to come up with a sure bet: something that could beat anything. I realized finally that it wasn't going to happen, and I settled on an army that would be competitive, but more importantly would be fun to play. I love that I couldn't think up an ultimate army. If I could have, I think a bit of my love for Heroscape would have died. The crazy thing is, this was a situation where the maps (and the rules) were all fixed! Imagine the variables when the terrain is new or unknown.

Whew. Anyway, thanks for putting into words the thoughts and feelings I have about this wonderful game.

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  #20  
Old June 4th, 2007, 01:16 AM
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Re: The Importance of HeroScape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
(I do love that word “foibles.” It always sounds, vaguely dirty to me.)
Do you love it because it sounds vaguely dirty? Or simply for its euphony with the vaguely dirtyness of the sound just being a bonus?

That's all I really understood about the post.

No, no, just kidding. I did understand a bit more of it. And in fact I disagree just a little bit. I'd call what the game's got "personality". And like everything else I know with personality, it's going to get old. It's already gotten old for some people, as we've seen on this sit. Don't get me wrong. It's a great game. A wonderful combination of simplicity, complexity, flexibility, great looks and feel, and a major producer backing the whole thing. It'll become a classic I'm sure. But just like everything else that's great and alive and has personality, it's going to get old, weather for the individual or for the culture. It's going to have its ups and downs. Which is actually good. As the only alternative to getting old that I know of is ... well ... a fate I hope never happens to HS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelord
Rev. How much free time do you have?
I'm old. I have lots of free time. Almost every Sunday afternoon free, in fact. I use it to look at the sparkley blue sky.
All the priests and ministers I know, crash on Sunday afternoon. I always wondered whether Saturday afternoons were that way for Rabbis. Any Rabbis out there that might know?
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  #21  
Old June 4th, 2007, 08:06 AM
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Re: The Importance of HeroScape

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
(I do love that word “foibles.” It always sounds, vaguely dirty to me.)
Do you love it because it sounds vaguely dirty? Or simply for its euphony with the vaguely dirtyness of the sound just being a bonus?

That's all I really understood about the post.

No, no, just kidding. I did understand a bit more of it. And in fact I disagree just a little bit. I'd call what the game's got "personality". And like everything else I know with personality, it's going to get old. It's already gotten old for some people, as we've seen on this sit. Don't get me wrong. It's a great game. A wonderful combination of simplicity, complexity, flexibility, great looks and feel, and a major producer backing the whole thing. It'll become a classic I'm sure. But just like everything else that's great and alive and has personality, it's going to get old, weather for the individual or for the culture. It's going to have its ups and downs. Which is actually good. As the only alternative to getting old that I know of is ... well ... a fate I hope never happens to HS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taelord
Rev. How much free time do you have?
I'm old. I have lots of free time. Almost every Sunday afternoon free, in fact. I use it to look at the sparkley blue sky.
All the priests and ministers I know, crash on Sunday afternoon. I always wondered whether Saturday afternoons were that way for Rabbis. Any Rabbis out there that might know?
Since I've been happily married* to the same woman for thirty-six years, I guess I don't tire of personality (an interesting term to use for the characteristics of the game, by the way) very quickly.

I like "foibles" for itself; the vaguely dirtiness is a freebie bonus. <grin>

(*I'm the happy one, but I'm pretty sure she is too, or I wouldn't be for long. )
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  #22  
Old June 4th, 2007, 09:27 AM
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Sorry for the double post, but I hope this is better than starting another thread.

Has anyone developed a way to quantify the complexity of a game?

For instance:

A coin toss (a very simple game) has two possible outcomes, so give it a complexity of 2.

Rock-Paper-Scissors offers players three possible choices and would have a complexity of 3.

Tic-Tac-Toe offers players one type of piece and nine possible spaces and one type of move (placing), so would be something like 1 x 9 x 1 = 9.

Checkers has two types of pieces (regular and kings) and 64 spaces and 12 pieces, so would be 2 x 64 x 12 = 1,536.

Chess has six types of pieces, 64 spaces, 16 pieces total, and multiple ways to move the pieces, so a value too big for me to calculate, but if I estimate the number of different moves (pawns have two possible, knights have eight) at 100 (I think this is too small, btw), that gives a complexity number of 614,400.

Hmmm...seems the scale would need to be logarithmic to make much sense.

Anyway, I’m not good at this kind of math (mathguy, help!), but was wondering if anyone has done this kind of analysis. Of course, my main interest is how this would apply to HeroScape.

I’m not arguing that complexity is better or worse. There may, in fact, be a kind of bell curve for optimum game “playability.”

I’m just curious, following on my initial remarks; and also do want to keep the conversation going.

(edit: I did look at "game complexity" in Wikipedia. I was hoping for something a bit more usable for a non-mathematician, and this
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/cgt/hard.html is interesting, but way over my head.)
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  #23  
Old June 4th, 2007, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revdyer
Of course, I was hoping to generate some discussion about the reiterative and fractal nature of HeroScape maps, but that seems to be asking too much.
Yea, far too much.

But I agree with you on your central premises. I don't think Heroscape will ever get old... or at least it'll take a VERY long time.

In fact, I find myself at odds with other players who seem to think that "ordinary" Heroscape is already old, and you HAVE to add customs and stuff to it to make it interesting. I disagree. The map possibilities are virtually endless, and that makes every game different. With the wide range of characters and units that are still expanding, there are virtually infinite variations and combinations that can still be tried. I know I haven't even gotten close to exploring them all myself.
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  #24  
Old June 4th, 2007, 09:58 AM
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The complexity factor in HS could change from map to map especially based on the point value of armies used and number of master sets. Perhaps to figure it out we should choose a "control" map. Let's say Forsaken Waters with two 500 point armies. Now calculating...wait a minute...hey Rev you might have to give me a bit on this one, but I'm working on it.

P.S.- Rev I never thought about the "chaos" factor in HS. It is now my ambition to create a fractal map. This sounds very ambitious and I am not sure it can be done. Now calculating possibilities..
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