Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.

Notices


View Poll Results: Who will be the Champion and crowned 'Best 4 Species Army'?
A Vampire, A Dwarf, and a Marro Warlord Walk into a Bar... 17 50.00%
Lamentation 2 5.88%
Incredibly Creative Army Name 12 35.29%
Should Have Been from Kinseth 3 8.82%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #49  
Old January 9th, 2015, 10:10 AM
Owlman's Avatar
Owlman Owlman is offline
 
Join Date: April 12, 2013
Location: Homestead FL
Posts: 563
Owlman rolls all skulls baby! Owlman rolls all skulls baby! Owlman rolls all skulls baby! Owlman rolls all skulls baby! Owlman rolls all skulls baby! Owlman rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

I knew my army wouldn't be "competitive" enough, but I still voted for me! HAha congrats to those who got in!

"Our mother has been absent ever since we founded Rome; but there's gonna be a party when the wolf comes home."
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old January 9th, 2015, 05:17 PM
Not User Name's Avatar
Not User Name Not User Name is offline
 
Join Date: August 3, 2014
Location: USA - ND - Fargo
Posts: 316
Not User Name knows what's in an order marker Not User Name knows what's in an order marker
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Dang, didn't even make the top ten. They were allllll good armies, and I see some great army makers who didn't make the top ten either. We always have next time, right?

Glad I could participate, good luck to all of those who advanced!
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old January 9th, 2015, 05:24 PM
Kinseth's Avatar
Kinseth Kinseth is offline
3-Time Online HS Champion & Diplomacy Winner of Land Wars in Asia
 
Join Date: May 16, 2007
Location: On my Throne.
Posts: 8,165
Images: 33
Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death!
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Shocked at this finals pole, I don't think that the Romans army stands a good chance vs either 2 or 3.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:43 PM
vegietarian18's Avatar
vegietarian18 vegietarian18 is offline
Online HS Season 10 Champion
 
Join Date: September 5, 2011
Location: USA - IL - Peoria
Posts: 5,240
vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth vegietarian18 is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Well, Cyprien is a fantastic Krav counter. The Roman build also has the two best anti-Rat Roman bonding heroes. A lot of the game would hinge on Rat/Nilfheim defense rolls.

I think #2 has some anti-synergy between the Greenscales and Rats (both figures want to be engaged with the Romans/enemy Greenscales). #4 seems straight up weaker than the other two; Rats were probably the better choice than Greenscales for that build. #3 and #1 are the two best armies in the pool, I think. But for that one matchup, I don't think you can really say "I know this army will win", with Cyprien and a Hydra in the equation.

Last edited by vegietarian18; January 9th, 2015 at 07:28 PM. Reason: clarification
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old January 9th, 2015, 06:56 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,737
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Actually, the best two anti-rat bonding heroes are Braxas and Nilfheim, and TKN is third. (Quahon is in that class, too, if we're counting the customs.) But Mogrimm and MBS aren't terrible.

I agree with you about the somewhat suboptimal double-screen on #2, although it's handy to get the extra attacks if you have to deal with screen-hoppers like Cyprien. I also agree that rats>GSWs in that build; SotM Rae is also probably worse than the Hydra most of the time, although the Krav synergy is undeniable.

If we're just talking about #1 vs. #3, of course it's winnable with a very hot Cyprien, but between rat-packing and the sheer offensive firepower of Nilf/Hydra/Krav I don't think it works consistently.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old January 9th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Foudzing's Avatar
Foudzing Foudzing is offline
Online HS Seasons 3 and 7 Champion
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: France - Paris
Posts: 1,478
Images: 1
Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Foudzing is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

I didn't vote for myself so that means I got at least 2 votes from other people which is gut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
If we're just talking about #1 vs. #3, of course it's winnable with a very hot Cyprien, but between rat-packing and the sheer offensive firepower of Nilf/Hydra/Krav I don't think it works consistently.
Depends on the map really, no bonding at all and not very effective rats can hurt the Nilf build on a flat and open battlefield.

Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old January 11th, 2015, 12:21 PM
kevindola's Avatar
kevindola kevindola is offline
13 Time OHS Champion
 
Join Date: April 25, 2008
Location: USA - IL - Peoria
Posts: 7,556
kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

In regards to #1 v. #3 since that's where the discussion and voting seems to be trending...
Spoiler Alert!


I think #3 looks fantastic on paper or theoryscape, the ultimate screening unit paired with the Krav and possibly the best dragon out there with the Hydra in cleanup.

But in practice I'm not sure how well it would translate against the Roman army.

All seem to agree that Cyprien counters the Krav. What that exactly means is open for interpretation, but basically Kravs can't do much if Cyprien is active. Cyprien ignores rats and while both the Hydra and Nilfheim can put a hurt on the vampire, they have to catch him. Which means a lot of order marker shuffling. Cyprien excels when order markers are mixed as he can bounce around to alternative targets. If you load up on Hydra or Nilf to catch him, then you are leaving the other open (or the Krav exposed). Precautions can be taken such as surrounding Kravs with rats (Very difficult to do on the 2 row startzone map (Fossil)), or keeping everyone bunched very close together in a defensive position so everyone is in threat range, but you are sacrificing some development to do this. It leaves the Cyp army free to spend more time developing Romans or even bringing out the Marro early to gain height and take potshots onto Hydra or Nilf (3 or 4 attack with Ulinavia in the pool). I also think Kelda on the board helps Cyprien the most of any figure. I see that in a standard game with general players, Cyprien will be able to take out a couple of Kravs and possibly a hit or two on one of the big heroes.

With the Krav neutralized, the other overlooked thing about this matchup is that the Roman army now outranges the other. Marro Warriors and Me-Burq-Sa allow for 5 6 range figures vs. 1 5 range figure (who yes, can attack up to 3 times). This makes it a bit more difficult for the Nilfheim army to position. The rats need to take a lot of order markers (assuming the Romans aren't taking careless normal attack) to get into a position where they are engaging with those ranged units and still getting Nilfheim into a position to hit while not receiving return fire.

Let's keep in mind that that although the Romans can be tied down with the deathreavers, they also have 2 heroes who can kill rats without activating scatter (Paralyzing Stare and Commanders Strike). Killing 1 deathreaver may not seem like a lot, but in this game, I really only see Nilfheim as the major threat. A timely non scattering rat death caused by a Roman bonding hero can open up a gap for Romans to move in through to reach Nilfheim. (Very similar to how chomp allows Heavies to flow through a newly opened gap in the defenses) Even if that doesn't happen, MBS can disengage to take ranged shots on Nilf that he can't return without moving closer, which means within Roman threat range if done correctly. I will also mention that Forgehammer with 6 life can afford to take a couple disengages through rats to get to Nilfheim. The rat screen will need to be very tight to prevent all these things. It will also need to be aggresive towards the Marro on the board because the Roman army will outrange Nilfheim (assuming the Krav are neutralized by Cyprien, which I think is fair over the majority of games/players). That's a lot to have to set up.

Do I think MW attacking up at Nilf, or Cyprien by himself, or a disengaging Forgehammer, or Me-Burq-Sa can by themselves defeat Nilfheim? No, but do I think a combination of these guys over the course of a game will be able to take down Nilf, even with a deathreaver screen? Yes

I didn't touch on the hydra much, but I don't think it stands much of a chance against a still active half set or more of MW and even a still standing Roman pod. Probably the best use of Hydra is to mix him up with Nilf and keep him in the midgame active and threatening...but that just adds to the order marker juggling of rats/dragon/hydra/(krav?) vs. the fairly simple Cyprien until he's gone followed by Romans (possibly MW if Nilfheim army is take a very long time developing allowing for MW damage)
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old January 11th, 2015, 01:36 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,737
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

We can play the finals live if you want kd

Last edited by dok; January 11th, 2015 at 01:36 PM. Reason: I think, at this point, the identity of the people who submitted these two armies is a bit of an open secret
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old January 12th, 2015, 02:23 PM
dok's Avatar
dok dok is offline
GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
 
Join Date: October 9, 2008
Location: USA - CO - Denver
Posts: 23,737
Images: 112
Blog Entries: 17
dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth dok is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Since I don't think we're actually going to play it out, I'll respond briefly to kd's argument for army1. Basically, I think there are two points of failure in kd's argument, and they both center around Deathreavers.

The first is the idea that you can't stop Cyprien from getting to the Krav. This ignores the time-honored practice of rat-packing. Particularly on a map like Fossil, it's not terribly hard to set up the krav in a triangle on the high ground with all adjacent spaces taken by rats (or by my own Nilf/Hydra). This can only be disrupted by a Cyprien rush, but that's relatively easy to see coming and leaves Cyprien fairly exposed to a quick kill (4 attacks of 5 from an Ulanvia-enhanced Hydra). If the krav can get established on high ground with rats around them, it immediately becomes a very tough game for the romans to win, because they can cover most of the map, including the opposite high ground. The presence of Ulanvia that can boost the Krav to attacks of 4 or 5 (and the Hydra to 5 or 6) only exacerbates the issue for the Romans.

The second assumption (which is less important after what I noted above) is that, without the Krav, the MW and MBS are going to be able to pull Nilfheim or the Hydra to a vulnerable spot. Again, rats. For the R6 Marro to hit Nilf without providing a return target, they will need to be out in front. That means they can be engaged by rats, and once they are engaged it's fairly trivial for Nilf or the Hydra to snuff them out.

So, again, it's quite winnable for the Romans with a very hot Cyprien (early rush to wound or kill the Hydra, wound or kill Nilf, and take out some Krav if you are careless). But absent that I think the multiple powerful offensive threats, plus the high defense of the rats, win out.

Last edited by dok; January 12th, 2015 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old January 13th, 2015, 04:02 PM
jetjake's Avatar
jetjake jetjake is offline
 
Join Date: April 29, 2008
Location: USA - IL - Peoria
Posts: 151
jetjake knows what's in an order marker jetjake knows what's in an order marker
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

I can't believe #2, 3, & 4 are so similar in build. I was hoping there would be more variety in the semi-finals.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old January 14th, 2015, 09:57 AM
kevindola's Avatar
kevindola kevindola is offline
13 Time OHS Champion
 
Join Date: April 25, 2008
Location: USA - IL - Peoria
Posts: 7,556
kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth kevindola is a man of the cloth
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok
This can only be disrupted by a Cyprien rush, but that's relatively easy to see coming and leaves Cyprien fairly exposed to a quick kill (4 attacks of 5 from an Ulanvia-enhanced Hydra)
It seems like this is the point that the voter has to most take into account then when deciding which army he likes more.

I agree that rat packed Kravs with height will win this game (due to the amount of effort required to get to them would leave the army too depleted to deal with Nilfheim), but the voter needs to decide if that is easy to do with Cyprien flying around. You imply that killing an all order marker Cyprien without him doing any kind of meaningful damage is a simple thing. All while juggling order markers between rats, kravs, and Hydra. I bet that practical experience from most players show Cyprien is not that easy to kill.

It seems that even if that is true, that army has a higher level of difficulty to play correctly with its order marker management. (within the context of this matchup). Something that I would take into consideration when voting for an army.

EDIT: 31 votes so far breaks the voting record from the previous challenges. Cool stuff guys! Glad the interest (even if it's passing) for these is still here

EDIT2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetjake View Post
I can't believe #2, 3, & 4 are so similar in build. I was hoping there would be more variety in the semi-finals.
Yeah, my goal is always to get a wide variety of armies with these things. And while overall I feel this is accomplished, the Final Four (both this challenge and last) have fell short in the variety department. 3 Nilf/screen/Krav armies this challenge, and in the 12 life Challenge it was 2 Fire Elemental armies and 2 Soulborg with slight difference armies. Certainly though lack of variety hurt the massed Hydra builds in Season 1 (arguable on what qualified as a mass Hydra build I suppose. But Micro Beast 21: Enter the Meat Grinder certainly was not @The Bearded One )

I think personal voting criteria would be interesting to learn. We had about a half dozen or so people who voted for all three Nilf armies in their Final Four voting, but almost everyone voted for at least one of them. So it would be interesting to know what goes into your personal voting style. It does seem like the lack of variety may be hurting the Nilfheim armies against the Roman build here in the finals though. (Also curious to note that Lamentation easily took 2nd place through the final four voting, but is getting creamed by Incredibly Creative Army Name in the finals)

Last edited by kevindola; January 14th, 2015 at 10:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old January 18th, 2015, 01:10 PM
yamissflash's Avatar
yamissflash yamissflash is offline
Our Illustrious Winner?...
 
Join Date: May 29, 2009
Location: USA-PA-Pittsburgh
Posts: 952
Images: 1
yamissflash rolls all skulls baby! yamissflash rolls all skulls baby! yamissflash rolls all skulls baby! yamissflash rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Competitive Challenge 3: Championship Voting (until 1/22

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
(Also curious to note that Lamentation easily took 2nd place through the final four voting, but is getting creamed by Incredibly Creative Army Name in the finals)
I forget if I voted for Lamentation in the beginning or not, but I defiently considered it. When there were lots to choose from, I didn't analyze all of them that much, and in the short time I looked at each army, I didn't realize how iffy Lamentation's double screen would be.

Incredibly Creative Army Name is a pretty bad name IMO. When it came down to picking the final four, if I couldn't decide between two, I picked the one with the better name. Now that I have to vote on which one is the absolute best, I went with the one that would beat the others, regardless of name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Yeah, my goal is always to get a wide variety of armies with these things. And while overall I feel this is accomplished, the Final Four (both this challenge and last) have fell short in the variety department.
Seeing as this is becoming a pattern, I suggest maybe having some sort of variety bylaw. Such as if an army is say 67% the same as another, the one with more votes in the first round wins, and the other is knocked to 5th. It will tend to make the final four at least somewhat different, but not to the point of saying, "only one army can have Zelrig."

Just a suggestion.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Valhalla HeroScape > Competitive Armies Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Competitive Army Challenge 2: Arch-vile wins kevindola Competitive Armies Discussion 88 August 5th, 2014 11:54 AM
Competitive Army Challenge 1: Kinseth wins kevindola Competitive Armies Discussion 87 March 30th, 2014 11:33 PM
Challenge: Competitive army using master sets 2 & 3 TGRF Competitive Armies Discussion 19 November 19th, 2010 08:49 PM
Wave Nine Competitive Armies Challenge goaliescaper Competitive Armies Discussion 6 July 31st, 2009 02:36 PM
The Diversity Rule killercactus HeroScape General Discussion 67 April 2nd, 2007 11:02 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:45 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.