Public Design Workshop - Page 792

TrollBrute · #**9493** November 24th, 2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm kind of wondering why you're tying that power to Order Markers at all if you're not trying to tie them to a turn with him?

Why not just something like:

BIO-MOLECULAR ALTERATION
At any time you may remove up to 3 Technology Markers from this card. For each Technology Marker removed using this special power, choose a different one of the following effects:

add 3 to Apocalypse's Move number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Range number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Attack number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Defense number;
remove 1 Wound Marker from this card.

I think that's really messy. If there's no limit on when I can do it, can I roll defense, remove a marker and roll 3 more dice? What about wounds? If I receive my last wound, can I remove a marker and avoid that wound? And what happens with powers like Widow's Bite? Just too complicated if you ask me.

chief- You're correct that 'Numbered Order Marker' refers to #s 1, 2 and 3, while 'Order Marker' includes the 'X'. However, quozl is correct in that you can't reveal the 'X' unless a power allows you to. Also, the power needs to have a limit to avoid it stacking (4 attack +3 on OM1, +3 on OM 2, +3 on OM 3= 13).

Here's some suggested changes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Spoiler Alert!

The 'until the next time you reveal an Order Marker' verbiage is to prevent the stacking issue and I moved the healing aspect to make that wording fit. Removing the first power is up to you, but I personally wasn't a fan of the markers boosting his stats when they're on his card and when you remove them. That's a lot of different calculation that needs done when playing him. Overall though, I like the design and I think it would be a lot of fun.

ibechief · #**9494** November 24th, 2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm kind of wondering why you're tying that power to Order Markers at all if you're not trying to tie them to a turn with him?

Why not just something like:

BIO-MOLECULAR ALTERATION
At any time you may remove up to 3 Technology Markers from this card. For each Technology Marker removed using this special power, choose a different one of the following effects:

add 3 to Apocalypse's Move number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Range number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Attack number;
add 3 to Apocalypse's Defense number;
remove 1 Wound Marker from this card.

Well, I wanted it that way in order to prevent you from choosing defense multiple times or attack multiple times, or any of the options 3 times. At present you may do this.

Drop an Order Marker
select up to 3 tokens (let's say two)
select your first tokens ability (let's say we pick attack)
select your second tokens ability (we cannot choose attack any longer because the ability clearly states "different one", so we are forced to choose something like increased range, or to heal a wound.
We could however drop the "X" Order Marker and use our last token.
Since the ability trigger is tied to an Order Marker we get to choose from a now complete list again. So now we may choose attack again.

This takes us from our original 7 attack (with the +3 for tokens) to 11 attack.

This set up would allow Apocalypse to boost either his move/attack/defense 1 time to 11 at the most with the use of his "X" Order Marker. However if he does this he will immediately be reduced to 5 defense (assuming he has 1 Marker on him still) until he can drop another Order Marker and take a turn (to get a Marker back). Something that could devastate an Event Hero worth his points.

The way you have it written up I could choose to remove 1 token and pick attack. Then immediately choose another token to remove and pick attack again. Then finally my last token to remove and then pick attack again. giving him 13 attack which is just to much for any ability to have in my book. The reason that it would work this way if I'm not mistaken is that the trigger is the removal of a token instead of Dropping an Order Marker. So the condition that you be allowed to choose "a different one of the following" is wiped clean at each token removal.

ibechief · #**9495** November 24th, 2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Also, the power needs to have a limit to avoid it stacking (4 attack +3 on OM1, +3 on OM 2, +3 on OM 3= 13).

SirG explained that to me as well. So we incorporated the "choose a different one of the following effects." line to prevent removing multiple tokens and stacking 1 statistic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Here's some suggested changes:

Spoiler Alert!

The 'until the next time you reveal an Order Marker' verbiage is to prevent the stacking issue and I moved the healing aspect to make that wording fit.

Well sadly this would be a seriously underpowered Apocalypse. After just a single round of Combat he would have zero Markers on him (in order to have been even a little bit effective). This would leave him totally unusable with just his base statistics. You would have to bring him in to the battle for 2 turns and then limp away hoping no one follows you, to build up your markers again. Most players would just hold out until he drops markers and then rape him with his 4 defense. He would have to use the markers because he certainly can not to anything impressive with only 4 attack.

If you remove the bonus from his base stats he would need his base stats bumped up by at least 3. Doing this removes the whole theme that his power levels swing from 1 extreme to another, And that he has the potential to utilize so many abilities. The problem with doing that is now he regularly boosts abilities to 10. Something that should not be a regular option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Removing the first power is up to you, but I personally wasn't a fan of the markers boosting his stats when they're on his card and when you remove them. That's a lot of different calculation that needs done when playing him. Overall though, I like the design and I think it would be a lot of fun.

Most players can probably handle subtracting 1 and adding 3. Also it is only done when you drop an Order Marker so it is not like you need to do the math all game. Consider that you only remember that tokens add 1 to base stats then just add 2 when you remove one; very simple. It does get easier to use as you play him.

I'm really excited that you guys are helping me with this design! Thank you for the constructive criticism!

TrollBrute · #**9496** November 24th, 2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Also, the power needs to have a limit to avoid it stacking (4 attack +3 on OM1, +3 on OM 2, +3 on OM 3= 13).

SirG explained that to me as well. So we incorporated the "choose a different one of the following effects." line to prevent removing multiple tokens and stacking 1 statistic.

The problem that I was referring to was that there was no end to his bonuses. If I add 3 to his attack, it's still there the next turn, so I'd be at 4 base, +2 for markers on his card, +3 for the boost from last turn, +3 from this turn. It wouldn't end and he would eventually be nigh-indestructible and rolling hundreds of attack dice per turn.

For not stacking on the same turn (say, +6 to one of his stats), the 'different' verbiage isn't clear, if you ask me. I thought you wanted to allow him to boost his stats by quite a lot. I'm not sure how to make that wording clearer...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Here's some suggested changes:

Spoiler Alert!

The 'until the next time you reveal an Order Marker' verbiage is to prevent the stacking issue and I moved the healing aspect to make that wording fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Well sadly this would be a seriously underpowered Apocalypse. After just a single round of Combat he would have zero Markers on him (in order to have been even a little bit effective). This would leave him totally unusable with just his base statistics. You would have to bring him in to the battle for 2 turns and then limp away hoping no one follows you, to build up your markers again. Most players would just hold out until he drops markers and then rape him with his 4 defense. He would have to use the markers because he certainly can not to anything impressive with only 4 attack.

If you remove the bonus from his base stats he would need his base stats bumped up by at least 3. Doing this removes the whole theme that his power levels swing from 1 extreme to another, And that he has the potential to utilize so many abilities. The problem with doing that is now he regularly boosts abilities to 10. Something that should not be a regular option.

How would he have 0 markers on his card after a round? He gets 1 back at the end of every turn, just like you had in your original write-up.

If the stats are too low, bump them up to whatever you feel he needs. I considered suggesting some stat tweaks (along with number changes on the markers), but I didn't want to make too many changes from what you had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Removing the first power is up to you, but I personally wasn't a fan of the markers boosting his stats when they're on his card and when you remove them. That's a lot of different calculation that needs done when playing him. Overall though, I like the design and I think it would be a lot of fun.

Most players can probably handle subtracting 1 and adding 3. Also it is only done when you drop an Order Marker so it is not like you need to do the math all game. Consider that you only remember that tokens add 1 to base stats then just add 2 when you remove one; very simple. It does get easier to use as you play him.

Yeah, +2 is simple; but it's math you have to do every time he moves, attacks or rolls defense, in addition to any height, power or glyph boosts he might have.

IAmBatman · #**9497** November 24th, 2012, 01:16 PM

Hmm, yeah, this one has a few more holes than I'd realized.

TrollBrute · #**9498** November 24th, 2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hmm, yeah, this one has a few more holes than I'd realized.

A couple issues maybe, but I think it's a solid start and could be really fun once any problems are hammered out.

ibechief · #**9499** November 24th, 2012, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Also, the power needs to have a limit to avoid it stacking (4 attack +3 on OM1, +3 on OM 2, +3 on OM 3= 13).

SirG explained that to me as well. So we incorporated the "choose a different one of the following effects." line to prevent removing multiple tokens and stacking 1 statistic.

The problem that I was referring to was that there was no end to his bonuses. If I add 3 to his attack, it's still there the next turn, so I'd be at 4 base, +2 for markers on his card, +3 for the boost from last turn, +3 from this turn. It wouldn't end and he would eventually be nigh-indestructible and rolling hundreds of attack dice per turn.

For not stacking on the same turn (say, +6 to one of his stats), the 'different' verbiage isn't clear, if you ask me. I thought you wanted to allow him to boost his stats by quite a lot. I'm not sure how to make that wording clearer...

I thought since the ability was tied to an Order Marker that it would be considered over at the end of the turn. I may need help placing time constraints on this. The intention was for it to only last that full turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Here's some suggested changes:

Spoiler Alert!

The 'until the next time you reveal an Order Marker' verbiage is to prevent the stacking issue and I moved the healing aspect to make that wording fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Well sadly this would be a seriously underpowered Apocalypse. After just a single round of Combat he would have zero Markers on him (in order to have been even a little bit effective). This would leave him totally unusable with just his base statistics. You would have to bring him in to the battle for 2 turns and then limp away hoping no one follows you, to build up your markers again. Most players would just hold out until he drops markers and then rape him with his 4 defense. He would have to use the markers because he certainly can not to anything impressive with only 4 attack.

If you remove the bonus from his base stats he would need his base stats bumped up by at least 3. Doing this removes the whole theme that his power levels swing from 1 extreme to another, And that he has the potential to utilize so many abilities. The problem with doing that is now he regularly boosts abilities to 10. Something that should not be a regular option.

How would he have 0 markers on his card after a round? He gets 1 back at the end of every turn, just like you had in your original write-up.

In a combat setting he would take a wound and need to heal sacrificing his last given Marker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

If the stats are too low, bump them up to whatever you feel he needs. I considered suggesting some stat tweaks (along with number changes on the markers), but I didn't want to make too many changes from what you had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Removing the first power is up to you, but I personally wasn't a fan of the markers boosting his stats when they're on his card and when you remove them. That's a lot of different calculation that needs done when playing him. Overall though, I like the design and I think it would be a lot of fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

Most players can probably handle subtracting 1 and adding 3. Also it is only done when you drop an Order Marker so it is not like you need to do the math all game. Consider that you only remember that tokens add 1 to base stats then just add 2 when you remove one; very simple. It does get easier to use as you play him.

Yeah, +2 is simple; but it's math you have to do every time he moves, attacks or rolls defense, in addition to any height, power or glyph boosts he might have.

Try and look at it like this. If you play Green Lantern Hal and Green Lantern Kilowog and you utilize his Green Lantern Leadership you are already doing exactly the same calculations every time you "moves, attacks or rolls defense, in addition to any height, power or glyph boosts he might have". This is an event hero. He is supposed to be enigmatic and complicated. To be honest like bats said, he could have been much more complicated. It is very hard to reduce someone with such a wide range of abilities to such a general mechanic.

I know that it looks complicated. I promise it flows just fine when you play with him. Plus to be honest. You are having so much fun each time going from 4 base stat to 7, 9 and in those rare instances when you really need it and can afford the risk of low Markers 11 (with the "X" order marker drop), that you couldn't care less.

I'm open to restructuring him if It will make the design better. I just need something that keeps him whole and not simply the sum of his parts. As is (with the exception of his "X" order marker issue and his ability effect Time frame) the design complements itself really well. I want to make sure that is still the effect when I'm done adjusting.

TrollBrute · #**9500** November 24th, 2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

I thought since the ability was tied to an Order Marker that it would be considered over at the end of the turn. I may need help placing time constraints on this. The intention was for it to only last that full turn.

Without anything to say otherwise, the boost would stay in effect continually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibechief

In a combat setting he would take a wound and need to heal sacrificing his last given Marker.

Only if he uses all 3 markers on his card on the first turn and then takes a wound every turn. That's just not going to happen all the time. Plus, with 12 Life, he wouldn't need to heal every wound. I think you're underestimating his stats, especially if you bumped them up 1 or 2.

With the Green Lanterns, the boosts only go up, and only +1 for each, at that; and to a maximum of +5. Apocalypse would have +1 for marker on his card, plus potential +3 boosts for each one removed, and then you have to remember which stats you've boosted. The Lanterns already push some limits there, I feel like Apoc would go another step further.

Yodaking · #**9501** November 24th, 2012, 02:47 PM

Here is a different take on how to give you everything you are trying to achieve.

Spoiler Alert!

Now he is clearly limited to only using 1 Technology Marker to boost any 1 stat and the boost it clearly limited in duration. He can also now use the defense boost as needed rather then having it tied to an OM reveal. The wound healing can still take place at the expense of a Technology Marker and occurs only at the end of his turn. With no OM reveal required for any of his powers either, the earlier Horsemen turn order synergy I suggested works fine.

Tornado · #**9502** November 24th, 2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

This is an event hero. He is supposed to be enigmatic and complicated.

I disagree with this statement. An event hero can be super simple, Satanus will be if he gets the votes. That said this character does warrant complexity. Good stuff, chief.

Lord Pyre · #**9503** November 24th, 2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado

Quote:

This is an event hero. He is supposed to be enigmatic and complicated.

I disagree with this statement. An event hero can be super simple, Satanus will be if he gets the votes. That said this character does warrant complexity. Good stuff, chief.

Speaking of which, why is Satanus an Event Hero? I just noticed that. Does he warrant it?

Tornado · #**9504** November 24th, 2012, 04:32 PM

I was going to give him a power called Tiny Arms which would not allow him to use Equipment Glyphs. Margloth suggested just making him an event hero and I agreed. His appearances in 2000AD comics is always eventful

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