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  #241  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 06:08 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grishnakh View Post
In the IslandScape 2013 championship game between Son of Grishnakh and OrcElf three factors contributed heavily. First the map was basically a hill in the middle. Secondly Son of Grishnakh took the hill as fast as he could. Third OrcElf charged up the hill into Son of Grishnakh's Cathar Spearmen. It was over before it started.

Now, for some reason, this one particular game constantly keeps being brought up as a reason that the Spearmen are broken. So I felt that it was important that the facts of that game were brought out. In this regard what I question is not that the spearmen are broken but the tactics OrcElf used in this one particular game. Charging braced spearmen on height was really not a sound strategy. OrcElf also had an unused Zetticron that would have probably chewed up the Spearmen from range. In fact afterwards we were a bit perplexed that OrcElf played that game the way he did. But hey, we all play our good games and our bad games.

Now, if you feel strongly that this unit is broken perhaps other reasons can be shown in support of this. But please, just not the continuation of citing this one game as representative of the perceived problem.
Indeed, the facts should be brought out.


First of all, your statements that I bolded are incorrect. This game was played on Badru Valley, with an attack glyph in the center. You are correct that the Cathar charged up the two hills as fast as possible, meaning that Zetacron would be attacking up. This makes the probability of killing a Spearman .469, or about 50%, meaning that every other turn I will kill one (if we go strictly by odds). Zetacron would get 2-3 shots, max, before the Spearmen closed on him. They do an average of .580 wounds to him, but don't forget Astrid, so really, that is .932 wounds per attack. That mean two Cathar should spear him for the kill. This means that Zetacron could take out a squad of Cathar, if I got really lucky, but most likely he'd only take out 1-2. And then I would still be screwed because of the luck dependency of the Cathar. I played the best strategy possible in the matchup by leading with the Heavies; I was defeated by two pure lucky turns when I lost a squad to braced spear and Grimnak to attacks. And also, you were the only one who agreed with your second statement; my dad agreed, but quickly realized that it is incorrect. The only flaw in this game was the power level of the Cathar Spearmen.


I would like to lead up to my next point with he fact that IslandScape is great, the people are great, games are fun and competitive (although not too much so, more emphasis on fun), and the people who run it, especially Grishnakh, are awesome. However, to no fault of Grishnakh, his son, or anybody present, and offense to anyone, but this was the single most un-fun game of HeroScape, out of hundreds, that I have ever played. I would rather face Q9, Raelin, and Rats than the Cathar Spearmen, because Braced Spears make the game very obnoxious. It is a worse power than Scatter in turns of annoyance.


So, not only do I feel that the Cathar are insanely powerful, but I also feel that they are insanely annoying. Please do not tell me that I need to start playing range to be competitive and that this is a good change for the metagame and all that crap. People have different preferences, and some of us would rather not play cheesy, cheap, girly range units that take much less finesse and strategy than melee units to win.


Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of C3V and everything it does to help keep this amazing game and community alive and thriving. That being said, I wish C3V would get off their high horse and realize that no matter how official they get, they are still customs. There is no reason that they cannot change a unit that they "released"; community custom makers of all aspects of this game (units, maps, etc.) do this all the time. I realize that you are human, and I realize that you make mistakes, but there is no reason that you cannot fix these mistakes. It seems like there are more people than just me who would like the Cathar changed. I encourage those who read this to give a serious second look to the problem at hand, and community members, please weigh in with your opinions, especially if you have supporting facts.


Thank you for your time and opinions, especially the negative rep I have been getting. And special thanks to @Dad_Scaper, for listening to the opinions of the community and serving as a median between us common folk and the lords of C3V.


Edit: no personal attacks intended.
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  #242  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 06:29 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Sounds to me like a combination of the map, the unit, and the glyph made the game the way it was. If you put an A unit in a good position with an attack glyph , of course they'll play incredible. Notice that I'm assuming the Cathar to be A. Nobody thinks they're not a top tier unit.

Last edited by superfrog; September 22nd, 2014 at 07:10 PM.
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  #243  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 06:41 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
This game was played on Badru Valley, with an attack glyph in the center. You are correct that the Cathar charged up the two hills as fast as possible, meaning that Zetacron would be attacking up. This makes the probability of killing a Spearman .469, or about 50%, meaning that every other turn I will kill one (if we go strictly by odds). Zetacron would get 2-3 shots, max, before the Spearmen closed on him.
Who cares how little damage Zetacron is doing? If Zetacron can kill a spearman 10% of the time, the strategy is viable. A 10% chance of killing a spearman is infinitely greater than a 0% chance of killing an orc, which is the odds Son of Grishnakh would have had as long as he stayed on the high ground.

The point is to get the fight on level ground, instead of running into the meatgrinder of Cathars camped on height.
  1. Mass your army in the middle of the map, near Astrid, in a place where you cannot be attacked from height.
  2. Ping the spearmen on height with Zetacron, from maximum range, with Zetacron screened by Heavies.
  3. Put a single OM on Zetacron each round as long as Son of Grishnakh refuses to advance onto low ground. Leave the other two OMs on Heavies so you are ready to attack if he comes to you.
  4. Be content to slowly bleed him to death.
  5. Watch Son of Grishnakh inevitably give up camping on height, and charge you.
  6. Meet him on level ground with the Heavies where your odds are much better. Pour all three OMs onto the Heavies once the battle is joined.
Sorry, OEA1, but you played the matchup poorly. It's also not a great MU for heavies, and your luck was unusually bad. But you played it poorly, which contributed significantly to your loss.
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  #244  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 06:51 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
This game was played on Badru Valley, with an attack glyph in the center. You are correct that the Cathar charged up the two hills as fast as possible, meaning that Zetacron would be attacking up. This makes the probability of killing a Spearman .469, or about 50%, meaning that every other turn I will kill one (if we go strictly by odds). Zetacron would get 2-3 shots, max, before the Spearmen closed on him.
Who cares how little damage Zetacron is doing? If Zetacron can kill a spearman 10% of the time, the strategy is viable. The point is to get the fight on level ground, instead of running into the meatgrinder of cathars camped on height.
  1. Mass your army in the middle of the map, near Astrid, in a place where you cannot be attacked from height.
  2. Ping the spearmen, on height, with Zetacron, from maximum range, with Zetacron screened by Heavies.
  3. Put a single OM on Zetacron each round as long as Son of Grishnakh refuses to advance onto low ground. Leave the other two on Heavies so you are ready to attack if he comes to you.
  4. Be content to slowly bleed him to death.
  5. Watch Son of Grishnakh inevitably give up camping on height, and charge you.
  6. Meet him on level ground with the Heavies where your odds are much better.
Sorry, OEA1, but you played the matchup poorly. It's also not a great MU for heavies, and your luck was unusually bad. But you played it poorly, which contributed significantly to your loss.
Except the Cathar had 6 move, and he swarmed the board. There was literally no way your strategy would have worked, especially with the way Braced Spear rolls were falling. Even ground wouldn't have helped. Plus, take a look at Badru Valley when you get a chance. There is literally nowhere that Zetacron, screened by Heavies, can go without giving up height in the center of the map. Please look at the obvious before you make such a ludicrous accusation and re-analyze.
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  #245  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:03 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Wow dok your strategy is going a bit too far...
I'd say it's the worst strategy I've ever heard from you.

I don't know how I would have play this game but clearly attacking once per round with Zetacron does not seem like a reliable strategy to me...

The cathars gets Astrid then start to slow-roll as they want meanwhile you kill nothing with Zeta.

Let's say the cathars charge they get 4 attacks of 4 on Orcs then your next marker is on Zeta then once again 4 attacks of 4 or even 5 if they took height in the process. That's incredibly huge.
Well it's game over from here.

Plus even if you have your OM on orcs the next turn you still have to brave the braced spears and can lose one or two orcs.

Let's face it going against Cathars without a good ranged unit (100 points at least) is just suicide. Especially on a map like Badru Valley.
Especially if it's the "I destroy melee" Cathar build feat Marcus.

Personnally I think I would have start with Zetacron. But yes it's a quite horrible machup and I don't want to play that.

Hopefully Cathars aren't allowed at Gencon because they would be even more op:
You go with the 4xCathars+Raymond+Marcus build you have incredibly strong cathars who can face basically anything. Then you stall the time a little bit and when only Raymond and Marcus are left in your SZ (with maybe one or 2 cathars still in play) it's "time's up let's count points".
You win on point and you watch your opponent's cries.
Dalu did this to me at a tournament I'll never forget him.

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  #246  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:09 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
This game was played on Badru Valley, with an attack glyph in the center. You are correct that the Cathar charged up the two hills as fast as possible, meaning that Zetacron would be attacking up. This makes the probability of killing a Spearman .469, or about 50%, meaning that every other turn I will kill one (if we go strictly by odds). Zetacron would get 2-3 shots, max, before the Spearmen closed on him.
Who cares how little damage Zetacron is doing? If Zetacron can kill a spearman 10% of the time, the strategy is viable. The point is to get the fight on level ground, instead of running into the meatgrinder of cathars camped on height.
  1. Mass your army in the middle of the map, near Astrid, in a place where you cannot be attacked from height.
  2. Ping the spearmen, on height, with Zetacron, from maximum range, with Zetacron screened by Heavies.
  3. Put a single OM on Zetacron each round as long as Son of Grishnakh refuses to advance onto low ground. Leave the other two on Heavies so you are ready to attack if he comes to you.
  4. Be content to slowly bleed him to death.
  5. Watch Son of Grishnakh inevitably give up camping on height, and charge you.
  6. Meet him on level ground with the Heavies where your odds are much better.
Sorry, OEA1, but you played the matchup poorly. It's also not a great MU for heavies, and your luck was unusually bad. But you played it poorly, which contributed significantly to your loss.
Except the Cathar had 6 move, and he swarmed the board.
If he's swarming to low ground, great. Marcus and Raymond boost move, not range. You still could have gotten him to low ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
There was literally no way your strategy would have worked, especially with the way Braced Spear rolls were falling. Even ground wouldn't have helped.
Re-read my post. I didn't say "guaranteed way to win the game". I said you could have improved your chances by not charging the height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Plus, take a look at Badru Valley when you get a chance. There is literally nowhere that Zetacron, screened by Heavies, can go without giving up height in the center of the map.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting trying to grab the glyph - although a the spearmen have to come down to level 1 to attack a glyph-holder. Something like THIS would have been fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Please look at the obvious before you make such a ludicrous accusation and re-analyze.
Sorry, I'm sticking with this. You hurt your chances of winning by charging height. Maybe your dice that day were so bad that it wouldn't have mattered, but Heroscape is a game about maximizing your odds, not guaranteeing success.
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  #247  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:13 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Well, now this discussion is circling the drain.

When I commented before that this is not an emergency, what I meant was, without meaningful data and a real pattern of the Spearmen behaving like a broken unit, there isn't much else to say. Which, maybe, is why OEAO is getting picked on for his in-game strategy in one game against one opponent at one map. Heaven help me if any of my losses were subjected to such an authoritative breakdown. And then people who disagree with the critics can repeat their conclusions of earlier, as if we've already forgotten them, and OEAO gets to relive his one frustrating Islandscape loss over and over as he tries to explain why alternate strategies wouldn't have worked. Maybe.

Really, the only interesting thing in the thread since I last posted is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Thank you for your time and opinions, especially the negative rep I have been getting. And special thanks to @Dad_Scaper, for listening to the opinions of the community and serving as a median between us common folk and the lords of C3V.
Don't sell me short, bub. I am one of the lords of the C3V.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; September 22nd, 2014 at 07:45 PM.
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  #248  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:14 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
This game was played on Badru Valley, with an attack glyph in the center. You are correct that the Cathar charged up the two hills as fast as possible, meaning that Zetacron would be attacking up. This makes the probability of killing a Spearman .469, or about 50%, meaning that every other turn I will kill one (if we go strictly by odds). Zetacron would get 2-3 shots, max, before the Spearmen closed on him.
Who cares how little damage Zetacron is doing? If Zetacron can kill a spearman 10% of the time, the strategy is viable. The point is to get the fight on level ground, instead of running into the meatgrinder of cathars camped on height.
  1. Mass your army in the middle of the map, near Astrid, in a place where you cannot be attacked from height.
  2. Ping the spearmen, on height, with Zetacron, from maximum range, with Zetacron screened by Heavies.
  3. Put a single OM on Zetacron each round as long as Son of Grishnakh refuses to advance onto low ground. Leave the other two on Heavies so you are ready to attack if he comes to you.
  4. Be content to slowly bleed him to death.
  5. Watch Son of Grishnakh inevitably give up camping on height, and charge you.
  6. Meet him on level ground with the Heavies where your odds are much better.
Sorry, OEA1, but you played the matchup poorly. It's also not a great MU for heavies, and your luck was unusually bad. But you played it poorly, which contributed significantly to your loss.
Except the Cathar had 6 move, and he swarmed the board.
If he's swarming to low ground, great. Marcus and Raymond boost move, not range. You still could have gotten him to low ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
There was literally no way your strategy would have worked, especially with the way Braced Spear rolls were falling. Even ground wouldn't have helped.
Re-read my post. I didn't say "guaranteed way to win the game". I said you could have improved your chances by not charging the height.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Plus, take a look at Badru Valley when you get a chance. There is literally nowhere that Zetacron, screened by Heavies, can go without giving up height in the center of the map.
Oh, I wasn't suggesting trying to grab the glyph - although a the spearmen have to come down to level 1 to attack a glyph-holder. Something like THIS would have been fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Please look at the obvious before you make such a ludicrous accusation and re-analyze.
Sorry, I'm sticking with this. You hurt your chances of winning by charging height. Maybe your dice that day were so bad that it wouldn't have mattered, but Heroscape is a game about maximizing your odds, not guaranteeing success.
That formation might have helped odds a little bit. However, I doubt that he would have been content to give me the four turns necessary to set this up, and the fact of the matter is, I still would've had no way to engage his spearmen with the way Braced Spears were falling. I might've killed a few more spearmen- that I will agree with. Would it have been enough? No. Not even close to enough.
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  #249  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:16 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Something like THIS would have been fine.
What a enjoyable game in perspective.

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  #250  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:16 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

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Wow dok your strategy is going a bit too far...
I'd say it's the worst strategy I've ever heard from you.
The point of the strategy is what you do against someone who is simply camping and refusing to advance off height. The reality is that if you start fishing with Zetacron, most players are going to come to you right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Personnally I think I would have start with Zetacron. But yes it's a quite horrible machup and I don't want to play that.
Well, we agree on the part that matters then.
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  #251  
Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:17 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Well, now this discussion is circling the drain.

When I commented before that this is not an emergency, what I meant was, without meaningful data and a real pattern of the Spearmen behaving like a broken unit, there isn't much else to say. Which, maybe, is why OEAO is getting picked on for his in-game strategy in one game against one opponent at one map. Heaven help me if any of my losses were subjected to such an authoritative breakdown. And then people who disagree with the critics can repeat their conclusions of earlier, as if we've already forgotten them, and OEAO gets to relive his one frustrating Islandscape loss over and over as he tries to explain why alternate strategies wouldn't have worked. Maybe.


Really, the only interesting thing in the thread since I last posted is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Thank you for your time and opinions, especially the negative rep I have been getting. And special thanks to @Dad_Scaper, for listening to the opinions of the community and serving as a median between us common folk and the lords of C3V.
Don't sell me short, bub. I am one of the lord of the C3V.
Oh, I know, but you are very understanding and willing to discuss things.


I agree this is not an emergency, I am just hoping that if similar results come in, maybe someday the design team could look at the unit again and, if they feel is valid and necessary, slightly change the unit.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:18 PM
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Re: C3V/SoV-inclusive Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Wow dok your strategy is going a bit too far...
I'd say it's the worst strategy I've ever heard from you.
The point of the strategy is what you do against someone who is simply camping and refusing to advance off height. The reality is that if you start fishing with Zetacron, most players are going to come to you right away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Personnally I think I would have start with Zetacron. But yes it's a quite horrible machup and I don't want to play that.
Well, we agree on the part that matters then.
He was not camping; he just advanced through the height first.
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