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Old October 27th, 2018, 11:24 PM
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Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

So, I was bored when I started to think more about the Tagawa Samurai Archers as being similar to the Marro Stingers. And then I wondered which unit is actually better. Now the consensus is that Stingers are better, but I'd like to challenge that line of thinking. With new tournament formats like Bring 2 and Cut the Cake, as well as new units if you do choose to use the C3V and SoV stuff, what was once good may now be a liability for competitive or casual play.

For reference, here are the cards for each unit.





On the surface, both units are similar. Their statlines, cost, and levels of effective synergy are around the same. The biggest difference between the two units are their attack and range. Samurai Archers has 6 range, while the Stingers have 3 attack. Oh, and the Stingers are 5 points cheaper.

Now, the Stingers do have more direct synergy options, but the Samurai Archers gift synergy to Sacred Band builds (a surprisingly decent bonding squad in formats where your opponent might have to use them). In my opinion though, the Stinger's best synergy options (besides more stingers) is the Marro Hive or maybe Torin who grants adjacent ones ranged counterstrike... Neither unit is particularly great in a competitive format, but neither are horrible when paired with Stingers either. For the Samurai Archers, neither official option is a great synergy piece. But maybe 1x of these guys with Kato will fill out your Kato+Ashigaru army. It's worth a thought. The C3V units (Raymond and Tomoe aren't too terribly much help either. At least Tomoe can get free activations from your damaged unique Samurai squads.

Both squads can "use" a screen, but neither really need it. The Samurai Archers can theoretically use said screen a bit better though, because they do have +1 Range to work with. Raelin remains a fantastic option for both squads to beef up their defense, but again, Samurai Archers use her benefits a bit better because of access to Counterstrike.

Now, I should get to the actual differences in the powers. For most competitive scenes, players tend to completely ignore Stinger Drain. This is not quite as true for Counterstrike, however. A good turn is turn in which your opponent suffers some sort of damage on your turn, or deals none or very little when it is their turn. A great turn is when your opponent loses something on their turn. Counterstrike gives you the chance to get a great turn, albeit rare.

Not using Stinger Drain means that you are using the Stingers for their stats only, which the stats are fine, but it does mean a good opponent can fight that turn easily with good defensive positioning (as Stingers have poor range and no easy way to boost it) and/or Raelin. Using Stinger Drain means that it can screw you with a 20% chance to outright lose a Stinger and lose your turn of attacks. That's a great turn for your opponent, and it's probably the main reason people will only use the Drain against things with superhuman stats (like Marvel characters). Unfortunately, losing a turn of attacks can cause the game to swing hard for your opponent, depending on when it was used. The flipside is getting a sweet +1 attack for the turn. This turns the Stingers into ranged units with 4 attack, and potentially 5 attack if they have height. Even good defensive positioning won't help too much against that level of attack score. But, most people have shyed away from that raw power to keep the Stingers consistent.

Counterstrike, on the other hand, is always active. Yes, there are units who get around it with ranged attacks of their own, special attacks, or by being samurai themselves, but that doesn't mean that the power ever stops working. For the Samurai Archers, it's a small bonus that can help swing a game or really screw up low attack figures (like Blade Gruts, Nagrubs, Spiders) when they have to attack the Archers. Or, that player can forgo attacking altogether, which helps you out too.

I'll try to add a bit more later, but I hope that I've started to convince folks to question old convention. There's plenty more to discuss again

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Old October 28th, 2018, 12:05 AM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

TSA basically auto-lose to meta armies. 2 attack doesn't cut it. Stingers have 3 attack, which means they don't auto-lose to Heavies, Knights, Q9, Nilfheim, etc.

They're kinda interesting in non-standard formats, but they're just so easy to play that I don't see any real reason to give them to an opponent? It's just set up tethers and max range.

Edit: And Blades would much rather see TSA (although they have a good matchup vs Stingers). They get enough buffs to ignore Counter Strike and their 2 attack. Plus, Grimnak.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 12:02 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

In my experience, 2 attack isn’t much different from 3. It’s only the height advantage that makes a real difference (a consistent 2 skulls is great). Main trouble is that Stingers don’t get height consistently so their attack of 3 won’t do enough against strong meta builds.

Blades have to pump a lot of points into more blades and champs to get solid results vs the TSA. Plus the TSA can split up a lot better, away from Grimmy.

Anyways, I’m not entirely sold that the TSA are better either. Just that they don’t suck nearly as hard as most folks believe. I’m undecided too.

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Old October 28th, 2018, 01:15 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
In my experience, 2 attack isn’t much different from 3. It’s only the height advantage that makes a real difference (a consistent 2 skulls is great). Main trouble is that Stingers don’t get height consistently so their attack of 3 won’t do enough against strong meta builds.

Blades have to pump a lot of points into more blades and champs to get solid results vs the TSA. Plus the TSA can split up a lot better, away from Grimmy.

Anyways, I’m not entirely sold that the TSA are better either. Just that they don’t suck nearly as hard as most folks believe. I’m undecided too.
What? Stingers do fine against meta builds, there's a reason they're meta themselves. 2 attack is much worse than 3. Stingers do often get height.

Let's make a couple Blades vs TSA theory matches here. First, we'll try straight TSA:

3x TSA 195
Raelin 80
Isamu 10

vs

3x Blades 120
Grimnak 120
Nerak 50

That's a 95-5 matchup for Blades. Grimnak makes it an auto-win. 2 attack will not be able to kill him.

So what if we give the TSA something to deal with Grimnak?

2x TSA 130
Eltahale 140
Raelin 80

vs

4x Blades 160
Grimnak 120
Nerak 50
Marcu 20

I guess that's ok? But that's only because Eltahale and Raelin are stupid good. Marcu in the end game is still scary though, and it's probably around a 60-40 matchup for Blades. Blades should be able to knock out Raelin and most of the Tags without much problem.

Point is, TSA are overcosted by a large margin, and really don't have good matchups (except against Spiders, a B squad). They are definitely a B-. 2 attack is bad. Counter Strike is situationally mediocre (unless it's Kaemon). 6 range isn't really much better than 5, the critical point is 7 to be able to outrange 4th Mass.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 01:28 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I get the feeling the Tagawa Samurai Archers would be a decent unit if they were 50 points. As is, they can't compete with Stingers.


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Old October 28th, 2018, 01:37 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.

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Old October 28th, 2018, 02:32 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.
Also, when they take height and get stinger drain, 5 attack dice vs a max of 3 from the tagawa archers is not even a debate. I've seen stingers murder most of anything they want. TSA not so much. The stingers are top tier, and I dread them when I see them in an opponents build at a tournament.

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Old October 28th, 2018, 03:02 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3 attack is very much better than 2 attack.
Also, when they take height and get stinger drain, 5 attack dice vs a max of 3 from the tagawa archers is not even a debate. I've seen stingers murder most of anything they want. TSA not so much. The stingers are top tier, and I dread them when I see them in an opponents build at a tournament.
And I’ve seen stingers fall flat on their face with the drain or not do much of anything when not using it. They’re not that great of units. At least, not much better than some of the other options in that catagory.

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Old October 28th, 2018, 11:12 PM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I took Tagawa Samurai Archers to Day 2 this year but not because I thought they were underrated. Mostly the opposite actually, 3 attacks of 2 deceptively looks okay but it's actually quite bad. I think I won both of my Day 1 Reverse the Whip games because my opponents tried to use the two squads Tagawa as bread and butter offense like ranged squads typically would be. They're at their best as cost-efficient defensive blockers with some ranged utility.

I wouldn't make an army out of them or compare them to Stingers at all. Plenty of figures have close stats to each other but aren't similar in playstyle.

I think this is a great example of why theoryscaping differences in figure strength through comparison is sometimes actively misleading
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Old October 28th, 2018, 11:44 PM
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Sterling Archers

I don't think the TSA are on the same league as stingers because the jump from 2 to 3 is bigger than the jump from 3 to 4 at range. They need to either be blockers or consistently have height to do solid. They're at their best when used like vegie did or in some kind of take 2 format.

I think they could beat blades but it's a tough matchup if blades are packing a chomp. I don't think the build OEAO suggested is what I would take if I needed to beat blades with chomp. She's very good, but a bit too chompable. I'd rather have a Hydra and use TSA as a screen, but that might not have been what orc was going for and it's still favored against blades because of the Hydra not the TSA.

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Old October 29th, 2018, 11:16 AM
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Re: Sterling Archers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I don't think the TSA are on the same league as stingers because the jump from 2 to 3 is bigger than the jump from 3 to 4 at range. They need to either be blockers or consistently have height to do solid. They're at their best when used like vegie did or in some kind of take 2 format.

I think they could beat blades but it's a tough matchup if blades are packing a chomp. I don't think the build OEAO suggested is what I would take if I needed to beat blades with chomp. She's very good, but a bit too chompable. I'd rather have a Hydra and use TSA as a screen, but that might not have been what orc was going for and it's still favored against blades because of the Hydra not the TSA.

~Dysole, using a lot of words to repeat what others have already said
Yeah, I was trying to build an army where it's not just "but what if I had Rats instead?" and utilize the TSA in a similar manner to the Stingers. Vegie's definitely right in that they are bad at being a range squad, they're better off screening.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 12:26 AM
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Re: Stingers Vs Samurai Archers

I love the spirit of the OP, even if I don't agree with its conclusion. Excellent thread.

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