New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese

[caps]

If your baseline is that you need to be able to fit 3x10th Regiment, then it seems like 285 would be the Delta variant of this.

[boromir96]

Originally Posted by caps

If your baseline is that you need to be able to fit 3x10th Regiment, then it seems like 285 would be the Delta variant of this.

I don’t really see the point to a Delta version of this. This and Delta are meant to accomplish the same thing on their own.

[caps]

Originally Posted by boromir96

I don’t really see the point to a Delta version of this. This and Delta are meant to accomplish the same thing on their own.

Delta helps, but the cheese is still the cheese. If you were facing, for instance,

Deathreavers x3
Major Q9
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RoTV)
565 Points, 14 Figures, 15 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

or

Knights of Weston x4
Sir Gilbert
Thorgrim the Viking Champion
565 Points, 18 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

or

Grimnak
Heavy Gruts x4
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider (or Nerak for 10 points more)
555 Points, 18 Figures, 20 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

would you feel good about your odds with any of these armies?

B-11 Resistance Corps
Jarek Guy
M-43 Resistance Fighters x4
Rendar Fy
555 Points, 18 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Kaemon Awa
Kozuke Samurai
Tagawa Samurai
Tagawa Samurai Archers x4
570 Points, 19 Figures, 19 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Heirloom
James Murphy
Warforged Soldiers x5
565 Points, 17 Figures, 17 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Major Q10
Syvarris
Warriors of Ashra x5
570 Points, 17 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Major Q10
Templar Cavalry x5
570 Points, 16 Figures, 32 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Marcus Decimus Gallus
Parmenio
Sacred Band x5
Wastewalker Gage
565 Points, 23 Figures, 23 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Maybe the answer is yes and I'm crazy, but in particular I think Q9/3xRats/Raelin is unfun to play against no matter the point cost.

[boromir96]

Originally Posted by caps

Delta helps, but the cheese is still the cheese. If you were facing, for instance,

Deathreavers x3
Major Q9
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RoTV)
565 Points, 14 Figures, 15 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

or

Knights of Weston x4
Sir Gilbert
Thorgrim the Viking Champion
565 Points, 18 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

or

Grimnak
Heavy Gruts x4
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider (or Nerak for 10 points more)
555 Points, 18 Figures, 20 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

would you feel good about your odds with any of these armies?

B-11 Resistance Corps
Jarek Guy
M-43 Resistance Fighters x4
Rendar Fy
555 Points, 18 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Kaemon Awa
Kozuke Samurai
Tagawa Samurai
Tagawa Samurai Archers x4
570 Points, 19 Figures, 19 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Heirloom
James Murphy
Warforged Soldiers x5
565 Points, 17 Figures, 17 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Major Q10
Syvarris
Warriors of Ashra x5
570 Points, 17 Figures, 18 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Major Q10
Templar Cavalry x5
570 Points, 16 Figures, 32 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Marcus Decimus Gallus
Parmenio
Sacred Band x5
Wastewalker Gage
565 Points, 23 Figures, 23 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Maybe the answer is yes and I'm crazy, but in particular I think Q9/3xRats/Raelin is unfun to play against no matter the point cost.

I would argue that a good portion of the non-cheese armies you listed are not well built armies. You can make a viable TSA army in Delta. Sir Artorius took one to the semis in an OHS event, which included a win over Knights/Gilbert. But that Samurai build I would expect to lose to most well built Delta armies. It’s an order marker nightmare. Delta doesn’t just allow you to throw X points of units in a build and expect that it’s balanced with everything else. There are plenty of Delta Armies that I would be comfortable playing into those cheese armies. I actually do like the Q10/Templar, and Ashra builds. I don’t think they play great into the Q9 build, but I would play them into the other two.

As far as playing into Q9/Rae/Rats being “unfun”, I can’t really dispute that lol. But I guess I think it can’t be that unfun if you win, and there’s plenty of things that I think can win into it.

[caps]

I threw those armies together in a hurry; it was more the idea of B-range units in general than it was those specific compositions. It seems to me that A-range figures still have an edge over B-range and C-range figures even in Delta just because they are so efficient and army-building for them is so much smoother. To me it still seems quite challenging in Delta to build competitive armies using figures like Anubian Wolves, Grok Riders, Templar Cavalry, Roman Archers, etc. because at any point value they're still inefficient. I use these opposite extremes to prove my point at the other extreme: the best of the best is very hard to play against, even when point values limit their numbers.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by caps

I threw those armies together in a hurry; it was more the idea of B-range units in general than it was those specific compositions. It seems to me that A-range figures still have an edge over B-range and C-range figures even in Delta just because they are so efficient and army-building for them is so much smoother. To me it still seems quite challenging in Delta to build competitive armies using figures like Anubian Wolves, Grok Riders, Templar Cavalry, Roman Archers, etc. because at any point value they're still inefficient. I use these opposite extremes to prove my point at the other extreme: the best of the best is very hard to play against, even when point values limit their numbers.

Of that list, the only unit I don't find viable in Delta is Roman Archers. And tbh I don't think they're salvageable. Unfortunately some units aren't (mostly when making them viable breaks the overall meta in some way).

I think the following armies are all viable in Delta at various point total/figure/hex requirements:

Anubian Wolves x5
Khosumet the Darklord
Syvarris
510 Points, 17 Figures, 17 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Grok Riders x4
Me-Burq-Sa
Ne-Gok-Sa
445 Points, 14 Figures, 27 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Kaemon Awa
Templar Cavalry x5
535 Points, 16 Figures, 31 Hexes
Settings: VC, Delta Points

Anubians in particular I actually like a lot, and have been tempted several times to run (but haven't found the sweet spot point format yet). 4 defense is quite good in Delta, and they can hit like a truck.

On a jungle or shadow map, I don't hate having to take any of those into a Q9 build.

I do think it's relevant that having less playing time with a figure makes them seem somewhat less strong, as we tend to not know optimal play for many of the non top tier units. When I was practicing Anubians, I found myself needing to play them very different from normal mele in order to maximize their unique stuff.

[caps]

You and Boromir are both more skilled and experienced competitive players than I am, so I'll have to defer to you. It still doesn't add up in my brain when I look at the armies. My gut still says the KoW have the edge vs at least 2 of your 3 armies (even adjusting your armies up to be close in points) and that the Heavies would probably cream the Anubians (the other two are bad matchups for Grimnak, which really nerfs the Heavies).

I did decide to use a modified list for the next Colorado event; mainly just thinking "what stuff would be most sucky/unfun for a very new/inexperienced player to go into?"

[Chris Perkins]

To be fair, that Knights build is 565 points, and the 3 I put together were 510, 445, & 535, so the Knights should have an edge if 565 is the point total there.

I was trying to build armies somewhat optimal for the squads you mentioned, not for the point total of the great Knights build.

One of the things about the cheese builds in Delta is that they tend to require high point totals to fit the whole 'optimal' build just because they cost more.

[boromir96]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

To be fair, that Knights build is 565 points, and the 3 I put together were 510, 445, & 535, so the Knights should have an edge if 565 is the point total there.

I was trying to build armies somewhat optimal for the squads you mentioned, not for the point total of the great Knights build.

One of the things about the cheese builds in Delta is that they tend to require high point totals to fit the whole 'optimal' build just because they cost more.

Yeah this is a very good point. How often do you see a total over ~530? With those builds having few cheap pieces they only have specific totals that they fit well at, and a lot of totals they have to float points with filler.

[Chris Perkins]

Also, I would be one of the first to say that 570 points, 18 hex max would be a bad delta format total.

At those (rare) high point totals, you need to allow 24 figures to let the cheaper stuff spam in order to be competitive with Knights/Heavies x4.

[caps]

It's interesting that y'all would bring that up; I'm currently planning to do 600 points, 24 figures, (no hex limit) for the next Colorado event, the rationale being that with a non kill-em-all format the players should be free to really explore the meta.

[Cleon]

The motive behind this is different than Delta. I think Delta’s goal is to try and make nearly every unit playable by repricing everything. Some units are at a loss though, where they can’t really be ‘fixed’ without hurting the overall meta, like Deadeye and Shades and maybe Obsidians. And I think looking at current Delta it does seem to me that the traditional higher tier stuff is generally still better than traditional lower tier units, but it’s way, way closer. In the classic game in formats with no restrictions (besides point and hex/fig limit of course), only like 30-40% of the units are viable. But in Delta like 90% of the game is viable, which is great. And they still come out with updates to further improve it.

But the idea behind this is to basically still play the original competitive game, but knock the top tier builds/units down a peg or two, with a simple rule and not banning units or changing a ton of things. This format doesn’t make all units viable (like Delta’s goal). Pretty much anything B-/C+ or lower will still get creamed. What I think and hope this does is move all the top tier stuff more on par with Romans, DC’s, TKN, Minions, Mohicans, AG’s, Blades, Ashigaru, Dividers, Hounds, non-Nilf greenscale builds, lesser rat hodgepodges, etc. And potentially make mid tier things like Drones and Agents a little more playable.

Inevitably, there will still be builds that are competing for best in the format. Romans and DC’s are strong to begin with and are pretty much untouched by the restricted list, so they’re definitely up there. But I don’t think it’s so clear cut, things like Gilbert/Knightsx3/Zelrig, Q9/a bunch of an unrestricted squad, Blastsx3/Gladsx2, Dwarvesx3/Dwarf Hero/range, Nilf/Greenscales, and ratsx3/Raelin/unrestricted range are all solid and there are many, many more solid builds with stuff on the list.

We’re doing this format at our next MA event which I’m pumped for. I’m excited anticipating what people will bring.