Sir Heroscape's customs

[All Your Pie]

Looking at the utility that you’re getting by moving around friendly figures with the Binders, it might be worth trying the shadows with Raelin. Being able to reposition her without the OM investment seems like it could be powerful.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by All Your Pie

Looking at the utility that you’re getting by moving around friendly figures with the Binders, it might be worth trying the shadows with Raelin. Being able to reposition her without the OM investment seems like it could be powerful.

That’s a very good point, I will try that.

[Sir Heroscape]

Shadow Playtest (Current versions in the OP)
#5.

Map: Coastal Cave - Wannock/Lodin
SirH: Xundar, Raelin, Demons x3, Hounds x3, Binders x3
vs
Brandonwiker: DW9K, Zombies X6

Survived: Xundar (full), Raelin (full), 3 Demons, 1 Hound, 3 Binders [and technically 1 zombie, but he conceded when DW9K fell]

Special abilities
- Tentacle Grab: 9/12

2 Grabs were for repositioning Raelin, 1 Grab to position Xundar, 1 Grab was used to "catapult" a Hound, 1 was for getting a Zombie off of a glyph and the rest were just repositioning opponents figures

- Demon SA: wounded 7/9 all on zombies
- Shadow Hunting: wounded 7/11 times 1 of them the final hit FTW against DW9K
- Xundar's Summoning activated 2/2 1 while on shadow

Summary
Zombies swarm but slow roll, and because of that I had enough time to prepare and set myself up for the onslaught. That didn't help too much as I got 2 early kills but he "reborned" them right back and was ready to swarm me with 6+ zombies in the vicinity. I got a key initiative switch though, and using the Binder got a zombie out of position and got 3 very important kills. He then got into position and rolled 4/6 but I blocked with a Raelin-backed Binder rolling 4/6. That was a huge game break because right then I started to roll. I was able to kill 3 more zombies the next turn, putting him out of position and hurting for number of attacks. He still had 8 zombies and DW9K but I had board control and kept getting initiative. As I got some breathing room I brought back my 2 dead shadows but even as I swarmed him using their abilities, he was able to blow up 2 and defend all the attacks until I finally punched through with a Hound rolling 5/5 on it's shadow hunting attack, felling DW9K.

Thoughts:
I finally won a game with these guys! This game was super fun, and I was really getting a hang of their abilities and how to pull off their combos together. It was extremely satisfying to use them all together and see how they build off of each other...very thematic. The main difference in this game from the others was that Xundar did not get swarmed or assassinated too early... I was able to keep him safe and away from attacks. Raelin definitely helped in this matchup because it forced the zombies to use their special to punch through the defense, but that's only 1 attack per turn and that really limits how many zombies you can bring back when I'm killing them much faster. The main thing I'm thinking about right now is the Binder's ability to grab ANY figure. I'm aware the potential there is to Grab a hero 3 times and shift them across the board, isolated and out of position, but so far I haven't seen that. The chances of doing that aren't great as that would take an extreme amount of setup, and it also would be ill-advised because of the heavy attacks you give up. Binder's aren't great attackers and so you put a lot at risk if you were to spend activations trying to setup a perfect scenario to Grab a figure across the board. Rather, the greater concern I think would be using turns with Binders to position Raelin. I think it's absolutely necessary for this army to be able to shift Xundar if he's in trouble, but I'm not sure about Raelin. I'm thinking of limiting it to "non-flying" units so that you can still "catapult" a hound, wraith or binder, or shift Xundar but still forces the player to sacrifice an OM for positioning Raelin.(Thoughts on this?) Outside of that, I'm seeing these guys working out REALLY well, super fun and so far not game breaking.

[Unhinged Manchild]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Shadow Playtest (Current versions in the OP)
#5.

That was a close game up until that init roll... round 3? That init roll was probably the most critical roll for either of us that whole game, and you killing 6 zombies in 2 OMs, while blocking my 4 skull mob attack in between, definitely sealed the deal.

IMO, the Binder Grab is probably the "go to" thing with these guys. It is very useful, and definitely what makes these shadow guys so unique, the sheer amount of synergy/potential with the other shadows that you get off of a successful grab is insane, although this is probably still much better hero killing than anything.

Seems one would want to typically lead your OMs off with at least a Binder to move one of your important figs or one of the opponent's figs into a better/terrible spot, respectively. When you have Raelin and/or Xundar, you can probably expect to get anywhere from 3-5 hexes of "free" movement for one of them during the opening round of the game. Raelin is obscene for her point cost, and moving her aura almost for free is big. Although I personally feel that this speaks more to how stupid OP Rae is, and not really a problem with Binder.

In your other games, were you demolished by ranged figures? I do think if I had better ranged presence that I could have forced you to come a little more to me, instead of fighting in Rae's aura for every defense. DW9K is pretty mediocre, and I'm not sure if spending OMs on him while all of those zombies are engaged is really worth it. Rae basically nullifies explosion IMO, barring a 3 skull hit, which I would never gamble an OM on at that point in a game. I could see these guys struggling against good ranged pressure, but maybe I'm wrong. The phantom walks on all of them make them so hard to pin down, that perhaps range/melee screen wouldn't even matter.

[Sir Heroscape]

So far I’ve done just strictly Melee matchups...and they’ve lost all games except this one with you. I imagine they’ll have a much harder time with range seeing as range likes to spread out and pepper the opponent from different angles. But we will see how they do. I think I’ll be doing tests against range next.

[Sir Heroscape]

Shadow Playtest (Current versions in the OP)
#6.

Map: Battlefield 23
SirH: Xundar, Raelin, Demons x3, Hounds x3, Binders x2, Wraith X1
vs
Biggabullfrog: Zaues, Gorillinators X4

Survived: Xundar (full), Raelin (4 wounds), 2 Demons, 1 Wraith, 1 Binder

Special abilities
- Tentacle Grab: 8/10 Helped 'catapult' a Hound and a Wraith
- Demon SA: wounded 11/14 all on Gorrillinators
- Shadow Hunting: wounded 0/1
- Xundar's Summoning activated 2/3

Summary
I think I will be adding "non-flying" clause to the Binder's Grab. It's just too powerful to reposition Raelin wherever you want and her only sliver of balance exists in the fact that you have to waste an order marker of developing you army in order to position her. I don't have much to say on this one other than that this was a fairly good showing for the Shadows. They've had another good run (albeit against a pretty low tier unit), and I'm excited about how they're looking. I really didn't use the hounds this game because even with the low defense I just wasn't getting enough power and positioning with them. Demons were great for chasing ranged units and then bypassing Tough and even minusing defense when I was able to get another one nearby.

The only thing mentioned by Bigga was that Xundar probably ought to be priced at 130 simply because as-is he is looking better than Kurrok based off of their abilities. I think I'm inclined to agree, though I hesitate to price him at 130 because of the bad Juju associated with that price point

[Leaf_It]

It doesn't make a lot of thematic sense that you would not be able to pull flying figures at all, though I could see an argument for pulling them being harder to do. I would recommend experimenting with a higher roll requirement for flying instead of just restricting it entirely. My reasoning is that you are making fights against flying armies like Minions of Utgar, and Phantom Knights unnecessarily harder to deal with. Maybe make it a 16, or 17 to pull a flying unit, or as an alternative you could tie the higher roll to Hero units only, though that would make maneuvering Xundar harder as well.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

It doesn't make a lot of thematic sense that you would not be able to pull flying figures at all, though I could see an argument for pulling them being harder to do. I would recommend experimenting with a higher roll requirement for flying instead of just restricting it entirely. My reasoning is that you are making fights against flying armies like Minions of Utgar, and Phantom Knights unnecessarily harder to deal with. Maybe make it a 16, or 17 to pull a flying unit, or as an alternative you could tie the higher roll to Hero units only, though that would make maneuvering Xundar harder as well.

Mmmmm....you do have a point there. Glad you said something. I talked to Bigga about this and he agreed it wasn't the greatest thematic alteration...though Boreos has set a precedent for designing with Raelin in mind. Not sure how to resolve this as the space on the card is also quite limited and adding more clauses and rolls for fliers separately just gets messy.

EDIT: actually here's the solution...Allow Grab on only on an opponents figure or your own Drow figures. That way it limits you moving your own Raelin, but can still grab Xundar and still allows them to grab opponents figures like before...flying or non-flying...problem solved

[bmon]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

EDIT: actually here's the solution...Allow Grab on only on an opponents figure or your own Drow figures. That way it limits you moving your own Raelin, but can still grab Xundar and still allows them to grab opponents figures like before...flying or non-flying...problem solved

I like this idea better than any consideration of flying abilities. I consider flying units "landed" when not moving. Otherwise how does any melee figure ever attack them.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Mmmmm....you do have a point there. Glad you said something. I talked to Bigga about this and he agreed it wasn't the greatest thematic alteration...though Boreos has set a precedent for designing with Raelin in mind. Not sure how to resolve this as the space on the card is also quite limited and adding more clauses and rolls for fliers separately just gets messy.

EDIT: actually here's the solution...Allow Grab only on an opponents figure or your own Drow figures. That way it limits you moving your own Raelin, but can still grab Xundar and still allows them to grab opponents figures like before...flying or non-flying...problem solved

The only problem I see with this, is that you can't move your other shadow figures either. There isn't a current iteration of the Binder with a d20 roll required, so I can't see how wordy the card is, but compare it to the Zettian Deathwings to see if you can fit in "or a 16 or higher if the figure has the flying, or Stealth Flying ability".

Originally Posted by bmon

I like this idea better than any consideration of flying abilities. I consider flying units "landed" when not moving. Otherwise how does any melee figure ever attack them.

You could argue that when you try to grab a flying figure, that they are able to fight against the grab with their wings, thus making them harder to hold on to.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by bmon

I like this idea better than any consideration of flying abilities. I consider flying units "landed" when not moving. Otherwise how does any melee figure ever attack them.

I think I agree with you here. Makes sense.

EDIT: though true, a suction cup tentacle seems harder to grab a flying figure with than a more precise chain that can latch an ankle or something...idk...

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

The only problem I see with this, is that you can't move your other shadow figures either. There isn't a current iteration of the Binder with a d20 roll required, so I can't see how wordy the card is, but compare it to the Zettian Deathwings to see if you can fit in "or a 16 or higher if the figure has the flying, or Stealth Flying ability".

Current versions are in the OP. The Binder does require a D20 roll to get the Grab. But I do agree with you that the Grabbing of one's own shadow figures is a big plus for the design of this group. Can't tell you how key a couple turns have been where I catapulted up a Demon or Hound by using the Grab...it's pretty cool when it works and makes things really fun and interesting.

Not as easy as I thought

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Current versions are in the OP. The Binder does require a D20 roll to get the Grab. But I do agree with you that the Grabbing of one's own shadow figures is a big plus for the design of this group. Can't tell you how key a couple turns have been where I catapulted up a Demon or Hound by using the Grab...it's pretty cool when it works and makes things really fun and interesting.

Not as easy as I thought

Looking at it's card, I think you could fit the higher roll on flying/stealth flying without getting too wordy. Just look at the space on the Drow Chainfighter. Hide in Darkness takes up a lot more space than Phantom Walk does.

Spoiler Alert!