HPC (Heroscape Point Calculator): Basic point costs

[Xotli]

Okay guys, I'm actually starting this project. Let's see how it goes.

The first thing I need is comments on the basic points assigned for X many life, move, range, etc. Here's the basic matrix out of the long long ago spreadsheet from .net:

Point Costs:

        Height  Life    Move    Range   Attack  Defense             
0       0       0       0       0       0       0
1       0       5       2       2       3       6
2       0       10      4       4       6       12
3       0       15      6       6       9       18
4       0       20      8       8       12      24
5       0       25      10      10      17      30
6       0       33      14      14      27      38
7       0       40      18      17      38      46
8       0       50      25      21      54      54
9       0       65      30      26      70      62

This is, I understand, the basis for HCC's auto-point-calc as well (altho it may be slightly different). Does everyone agree with these base numbers? Does anyone have a different set they use?

Personally, I have two questions about it. First, it seems a little weird to me that height doesn't add any points ... bigger is better, right? The taller you are, the higher you can climb, and the farther you can fall without damage.

Secondly, defense is worth twice attack (at low levels)?? Isn't the classic argument for Taelord costing so much more than Raelin that better attack is better than better defense? So I don't understand defense costing twice as much as attack at all.

Thoughts anyone?

[Grungebob]

I don't agree with these points. Life should be scaled according to the power. An all 5 unit with 5 life costs 82 while an all 5 unit with just one life costs 62? doesn't jive at all.... Not much about this does. I would not use it.

[Xotli]

Thanx for the tips GB. Okay, I'll look at HCC's code and see if I can extract something more recent from that.

In the meantime, do you have anything like this that you use for your own customs? How do you come up with your point values?

Where's UD, I wonder ... I've seen him do point breakdowns before, I'm sure ...

[shakey_snake]

playtesting.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by shakey_snake

playtesting.

I agree that playtesting is the only way to make sure you have the points right in the end, but I'm hoping to come up with something that'll get you in the right ballpark to start with.

[philowar]

I use a different point cost calculator. Think it was from .net. It's in Excel spreadsheet form. It calculates most of the figures from the master set nearly dead-on and is an invaluable tool for determining (contrary to what anyone says) ballpark base point values when creating customs. So far, it has yet to be too far off the mark.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by philowar

I use a different point cost calculator. Think it was from .net. It's in Excel spreadsheet form. It calculates most of the figures from the master set nearly dead-on and is an invaluable tool for determining (contrary to what anyone says) ballpark base point values when creating customs. So far, it has yet to be too far off the mark.

Awesome! But I thought those figures above were from the old .net spreadsheet ... I think I was confused.

But if you could email me your spreadsheet it would be a fantastic starting point philowar! I'll pm you my email. (Alternatively, you could put it up as a download so everyone else can get it too.) Thanx!

[reapersaurus]

I haven't seen a point calculator yet that was close within 25%, IMO.
The best way to estimate costs is to compare against other official units.

I think the old .net one didn't appropriately cost for additional figures in the squad - in fact, I think it made a 4-figure squad CHEAPER than a 3-figure squad of the same stats, IIRC.

[philowar]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

I haven't seen a point calculator yet that was close within 25%, IMO.

Then you should try the one I'm talking about, which you've probably already seen since you've been around a good while. It calculated Syvarris at 101 points, Raelin at 79.75, Finn and Thorgrim at 79, and a few other guys from the master set that I tried almost dead on. I believe that's at least 25% accurate. Furthermore, the guys it was a bit off on it seems to have priced more accurately priced than the Hasbro devs: Mimring at 142 (let's round him down to 140) and Drake at 117 (up to 120. I've always thought Drake was a little on the cheap side with grapple gun and thorian speed and 6 attack for 110, though as I use him a lot I'm not complaining about the bargain).

I'm not saying that the calculator I use is a be-all end-all, but it certainly is a great tool for roughly determining base costs before adding specials, or determining the approximate costs of specials that closely resemble those that can be found in figures from Wave 1 or the master set. If I knew who the hell came up with it in the first place, I'd thank him wholeheartedly.

-phil

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by reapersaurus

I haven't seen a point calculator yet that was close within 25%, IMO.

Well, that gives me something to shoot for, then.

I just checked HCC and this is exactly what it uses. So let's take a look at philowar's spreadsheet:

Point Costs:

        Height  Life    Move    Range   Attack  Defense             
0       0       0       0       0       0       0
1       0       5       2       2       2       3
2       0       10      4       4       4       8
3       0       15      6       6       7       14
4       0       20      8       8       10      20
5       0       25      10      10      13      26
6       1       33      14      14      24      34
7       1       40      18      17      35      42
8       2       50      25      21      50      50
9       2       65      30      26      65      58

The differences are subtle. First of all there are some points assigned for large heights, which addresses one of my original concerns. The numbers for attack and defense are different too, but part of the pattern I was objecting to remains: defense points are still double attack points for most low-level dice. However, philowar says this one works well, so I think the next test will be for me to take all the official units I can and run a comparison test.

Hopefully I'll be getting the base data from Logrey, which will save me having to type in a bunch of stuff. Once I get that, I'll post back here with the results.

Of course, comments in the meantime are always welcome.

[Grungebob]

Run Krug through that thing.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Run Krug through that thing.

Well, the spreadsheet is old enough that it doesn't know what Wounded Smash is, but I'd say any way you look at it it thinks Krug is underpriced.

Using the same value for Double Attack that it uses to make Syvarris come out exactly, the spreadsheet says that if Krug didn't have Wounded Smash at all, he'd still be worth 110 pts. (To make Wounded Smash add a mere 10 pts, I'd have to make it equivalent to Disengage or Bonding, and I think it's clear it's worth more than that.)

However, I disagree slightly with the way Double Attack is costed in the sheet. The sheet has two ways to cost powers: a point value that's just added in, or a multiplier. The idea is that certain things, like, say, Slither, are cooler the cooler your unit is. That is, the more you can attack, and/or defend, and/or move, and/or survive, the more use you're going to get out of Slither. OTOH, an ability like Chomp is just there. It's the same amount of useful to a unit with attack 1 as to one with attack 9.

Double Attack is costed as 30 pts, straight up. Which I think is wrong, because to me it seems like Double Attack is obviously more useful the more attack dice you have. Now, if I change Double Attack to be a multiplier but make sure that Syvarris stays at 100 pts, it comes out to 40% (which is equivalent to The Drop, or, say, twice as good as Frenzy). Using 40% instead of 30 pts for Krug give you 120 without counting Wounded Smash at all.

So either way he's underpriced, according to this sheet. The thing is, I can't recall if these results are good or not. Is the general concensus that Krug is underpriced?