When does Microcorp Stealth Armor not apply?

[Jason]

"if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

Rolling the 20 for the auto kill does not require a Negation Marker thereby negating the limitation of choosing a Unique if you have atleast 1 Negation Marker left

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by Jason

"if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. "

Rolling the 20 for the auto kill does not require a Negation Marker thereby negating the limitation of choosing a Unique if you have atleast 1 Negation Marker left

Um no. Read it yet again.

You don't even get to roll the die, until all those conditions are met. You do not roll the die if you answer NO to any of these questions.

Is it the end of the turn?
Is there a negation marker on the card?
Is the figure unique?
Is it within 6 clear sight spaces?

It doesn't matter that rolling a 20 doesn't remove a counter....The number you roll is dependant on actually rolling not the other way around....

[Jason]

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

[LilNewbie]

Actually, I think the burden of proof is on your shoulders. The wording on the card is pretty clear and NS did a good job of pointing out the restrictions and requirements to roll the d20 in the first place. You can't just roll the d20 and hope to get a 20 against any figure. It has to meet the four requirements already discussed before you can even roll the die.

Newb.

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by Jason

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

There doesn't need to be a clarification. Its on the card.

How can you disagree about the conditions needing to be met before you roll? Its on the card before it says, "Roll the 20-sided die." Read the card from top to bottom left to right, not bottom to top, right to left.

What are you talking about on Chomp? This is nothing like Chomp.

Originally Posted by Heroscape.com

Before attacking, choose one medium or small figure adjacent to Grimnak. If the chosen figure is a Squad figure, destroy it. If the chosen figure is a Hero figure, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher, destroy the chosen Hero.

You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heroscape.com

Rod of Negation
Start the game with 3 brown Negation Markers on this card. At the end of the turn, if you have at least 1 Negation Marker on this card, you may choose any opponent's unique figure within 6 clear sight spaces of Morsbane. Roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-15, nothing happens. If you roll a 16-19, place a Negation Marker on the chosen figure's Army Card. All of that figure's special powers are negated for the entire game. If you roll a 20, destroy the chosen figure.

The wording is clear, and nether's interpretation is certain. There is a clear progression:

1. If at end of turn you have marker left, you choose a UNIQUE figure.
2. You roll the dice.
3. Based on the outcome of the die, you take appropriate action (either a) none, b) negate or c) destroy).

The last sentence about destroying the figure is part of a larger flow of thought and context. You simply cannot roll for Morsbane's power against a common, unless you disregard almost the entire wording of the card and take the last sentence out of its interpretive context.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Jason

I disagree with your premise those 4 conditions have to be met. Those are the conditions to be met when trying to Negate not when rolling the for the Auto Kill. It's kinda like Chomp, either you can get 1 effect OR you can try rolling for the other one. If there was some exact rules clarification on this subject feel free to show me.

The negate roll (a 16-19 on the d20) and the destory roll (a 20 on the d20) are both types of negation. In the first instance you negate abilities. In the second you negate the figure's very existence.

[netherspirit]

Thanks for the backup Newb and Pilgrim.

[Jason]

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other


-As for the Grimnak Discussion:


"You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping."

That is not true, if Grimnak is adjacent to BOTH a Medium Hero AND a Medium squad member you can choose whether to Auto Chomp the squad member OR Roll the D20 to try to chomp the Hero

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Jason

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other

I see what your saying - you've articulated it well. I just think you're misreading the card.

There is one power (Rod of Negation) that can manifest itself in one of three ways (no effect, negating the powers of an army card, or destroying the chosen figure). This is clear from the context for three reasons:

1) the string of If statements that follow from the command to roll the die (e.g. if you roll a 1-15, if you roll a 16-29, if you roll a 20). This clearly indicates that these different outcomes are all tied to the rolling of the die for the rod of negation.

2) the numbers clearly indicate that the whole thing hangs together. 1-15 is followed by 16-19 which is followed by 20. This not a different power, but rather a different outcome for the same power, depending on the roll of the one die for the Rod of Negation power.

3) it's all under the heading of one power, called Rod of Negation.

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, so please don't take offense: but are you just pulling our leg here? Or do you actually think there are two separate powers being discussed? I'm just a little incredulous at the need for this discussion. Like I said: no offense. I often miss the obvious myself.

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by Jason

You 3 are reading the 20 roll as part of the negation attack whereas it is completely different. When you negate you negate an entire army card when you destroy with the 20 you only destroy the figure instead of the whole card. Hasbro merely combined the 2 powers like they did with Taelord. The fact that one effect requires a negation marker and affects an entire card whereas the other requires no marker and only affects a single figure is evidence the 20 is separate from the 16-19 as opposed to 1 being the function of the other


-As for the Grimnak Discussion:


"You don't get to chose to roll the die. Its dependant on the type of figure you are chomping."

That is not true, if Grimnak is adjacent to BOTH a Medium Hero AND a Medium squad member you can choose whether to Auto Chomp the squad member OR Roll the D20 to try to chomp the Hero

Your statement about Grimnak is true. But it is different that what is happening on the Morsbane card and is only clouding the issue.

For Morsbane you can not choose to try and roll a 20. You are rolling for the power "Negation Rod." Like Pilgrim said its 1 power with 3 results, all of which are dependant on the conditions set forth in the sentence preceeding, "Roll the 20-sided die." You can not ignore that sentence, not even one part if it. Rolling the die only comes if you make it through the second sentence of the power.

Basically, you can not say that oh I am not rolling to negate I am rolling to destroy, the card isn't worded like that.

[ChaosChild]

Nether, Pilgrim and Newb have got it. You cannot choose what part of the ability to use, you choose which ability to use.

With Grimnak, you don't choose which chomp to use (squad or hero), you choose to chomp or not. If the chosen fig is a hero, then you roll. Having to roll is a penalty for choosing a hero.

Similarly with Morsbane, if you choose to use Rod of Negation and roll a 20 you get a bonus of destroying the fig and not using a marker. You only get the bonus if you use the negation ability.

Hope that helps.