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  #7585  
Old April 7th, 2022, 04:59 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Sorry the 7 was a typo (I use a number pad most of the time). Pulling key figures off high ground and possibly behind battle lines can really shift the game. Some designs rub some people the wrong way and that's fine. I feel the og desigers went a bit crazy with samurai, elf wizards and vampires at the experience of other potential factions.

I even feel we are getting to criticial mass on units like ninja, orc, rouge and the dreaded medium fantasy hero. Monks too but lee looks like a cool package.


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  #7586  
Old April 7th, 2022, 05:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I do feel kinda stupid, the double Drag is possible but can't yield results different than a single Drag. Apologies for thinking that through incorrectly.

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  #7587  
Old April 7th, 2022, 05:12 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Drow Assassin Withdraw: I wholeheartedly agree with your plan to remove the ability for the assassin triggering itself. That was the biggest gripe I had with the design. As for the other two prospective changes, I don’t know if those are the correct direction, they very well may be, but I want to caution you against over-correcting. I would look at a direction that keeps them powerful within a Deepwyrm build but less abusable outside that build. There’s a sweet spot in there somewhere and I hope to see the next version hit the mark.

----------

Lee Jun Resubmission: I didn’t have the opportunity to test the previous version and look forward to giving this guy a whirl.

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Hounds of Perdition: To avoid beating a dead horse so to speak, I agree with Scytale about the size (the Hounds should be Medium), the species, and the issues with the no hit-zone power on such a fast unit. I also tend to agree with superfrog and wriggz about the miniatures. There have been quite a few unpainted pieces as of late and without a new color or clear tie-in to the unit of the same color (in this case the Specters) I don’t think the unpainted piece is justified here. Especially, because I see Hell Hounds as either the great black dogs from various cultural mythologies or as the more fire-and-brimstone versions from D&D; rather than the spectral version you’ve presented.

I think the double-drag issue has been clarified but I’ll put this here anyways. Diagramming how the double drag doesn’t gain anything. (Sorry it isn’t up to my usual graphic standard.)

H - HOUND
R - RAELIN
* Assumes flat terrain



to the Hounds of Perdition.

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Last edited by Vydar_XLIII; April 7th, 2022 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Added Key
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  #7588  
Old April 7th, 2022, 05:35 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I do feel kinda stupid, the double Drag is possible but can't yield results different than a single Drag. Apologies for thinking that through incorrectly.
No worries. I misread, or misunderstand things all the time. Even things that I've used/read before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Drow Assassin Withdraw: I wholeheartedly agree with your plan to remove the ability for the assassin triggering itself. That was the biggest gripe I had with the design. As for the other two prospective changes, I don’t know if those are the correct direction, they very well may be, but I want to caution you against over-correcting. I would look at a direction that keeps them powerful within a Deepwyrm build but less abusable outside that build. There’s a sweet spot in there somewhere and I hope to see the next version hit the mark.
Don't worry. I'm going over it all. I don't think I'll change from my current plan, but I'm going to take time to make sure I still feel that way in a few weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Lee Jun Resubmission: I didn’t have the opportunity to test the previous version and look forward to giving this guy a whirl.
I think you'll love him. He's a lot of fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
to the Hounds of Perdition.
And that kills it I believe. Thanks for the visualization though.
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  #7589  
Old April 7th, 2022, 07:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Hounds of Perdition have received 4 Nay votes to review (Scytale, wriggz, superfrog, and Vydar_XLIII) and are removed from the process.
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  #7590  
Old April 7th, 2022, 09:42 PM
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Too Late

Interested to give Lee a shot. Things look restrained enough

I know it doesn't matter but I would've down voted the hounds solely for small figure dragging a large one.

~Dysole, who got caught up in a lot of things today and just now checking the thread

Last edited by Dysole; April 8th, 2022 at 10:24 AM.
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  #7591  
Old April 8th, 2022, 09:54 AM
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Re: Too Late

Lee Jun by Leaf_It has received 5 Yea votes to review (Scytale, wriggz, superfrog, Vydar_XLIII, and Dysole) and moves forward in the process.
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  #7592  
Old April 8th, 2022, 05:49 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Kate Crawford by @Pumpkin_King

Unfortunately, in HeroScape history, as far back as Wave 4: Zanafor’s Discovery: Lawmen and Samurai, Hasbro never tried to give Ullar a Lawman. No figure was designed to fill that niche. None.*

Now, Kate Crawford has rolled into town, and wow, she’s a lot better than whatever Hasbro probably would’ve done with that opportunity. But does she stack up as an addition to the VC canon?

*Deadeye Dan is simultaneously one of my favorite and most-often-forgotten figures.

BALANCE
I initially had reservations about Kate’s balance in relation to the other Lawmen and filler figures. For just 10 points more than Guilty McCreech, for instance, she has more than twice the survivability and trades Double Attack for a 3x2 special attack. Patrick Ferguson needs height to outgun her and has a negative power to top it off, the Achillean Gladiatrix is much less reliable, et cetera.

These comparisons didn’t really hold up over on the table, though. Many of those figures have other synergy webs, such as bonding with Dreadguls or Capuans. Guilty especially benefitted from his synergy and the ability to use height advantages, despite having one fewer attack roll and less life than Kate. Even figures with less impactful synergy, like Kira Jax or Siiv, generally have focused and distinct niches. As a standalone filler, Kate felt much weaker than several of the alternatives.

Kate wasn’t designed as a true filler, though. Even though he was not approved at the time of my testing with Kate, I found it important to test her with Clayton Pierce and the other Lawmen (especially given the post-submission addition of Louis “Mad Dog” Malone). I found that Kate is a significant improvement to the Clayton build, bringing their points total down and their potential attacks in one Order Marker up to 7 or 8 (most of which are special!). Bringing two shotgun blasts was often wasted anyway, so many builds were at least interested in dropping one explosion for Kate and getting an extra 25 points to spend elsewhere.

The build with Clayton was initially a concern for me as it can perform quite well in many height-imbalanced scenarios, especially against melee forces with a screen. Only having one OM to get many attacks of various types (and free repositioning to get there) was strong, especially when the other turns were spent with the screen. As another cheap gun, Kate contributes a decent amount to this build. Ultimately, though, I felt that this could still be replicated to almost the same effect with normal ranged squads, especially if the melee player was smart and stayed out of range of the inevitable Shootouts.

Overall, I found that Kate often performed pretty poorly for her points as a standalone investment and exceeded her value in Clayton builds, but with the latter build having counterplay compared to typical ranged squads. Given that Clayton recently got four upvotes, too, her being outclassed by other fillers without him is fine by me.

THEME
I love the theme of Fan the Hammer Special Attack; it instantly evokes many of my favorite westerns. Tenacity feels a bit odd on the design as a plain power to boost her defense, but it hints at a character trait beyond her gun, especially considering her Bold personality and need to get a bit closer than is comfortable to use Fan the Hammer.

Nothing about the design particularly evokes Ullar other than the green tunic, but to be fair, most of the other Lawmen don’t really have strong ties to their general, either, so it didn’t feel out of place here.

CREATIVITY
Fan the Hammer is the most creative part of the card in my opinion, especially for how it tweaks a common multi-attack Special Attack into something new with its single-target restriction. This creates a plethora of differences that I’ll describe below.

Tenacity is also technically a new power, but it’s a common archetype that we’ve seen before on units like Sir Dupuis. The restraint here is solid and the card overall shows enough creativity to be interesting.

PLAYABILITY
Kate’s Fan the Hammer Special Attack definitely provides a new tool as a filler unit, but to be honest, that tool is rarely useful. I almost always felt that Kate’s 40 points would have been better spent elsewhere, because 3 attacks of 2 against a single figure rarely make a sizable impact. There are some niche uses, though—fishing for defense dice whiffs being a big one—and there were a handful of games where Kate made an impact such as dealing 2-3 wounds on Charos or getting lucky against a Zettian Guard. Most of her failures were due to HeroScape naturally favoring multi-targeting—not necessarily attacking—designs competitively. As a 40 point filler unit, such weaknesses are palatable, even if she lacks the strengths of comparative units like Siiv. Importantly, Kate also found some okay results in other formats like a dungeon crawl or heroes-only battle, so there’s a place for her on the battlefield.

With Clayton, she performed much better. Bringing her along to diversify the Lawmen abilities was useful, and as a purely ranged figure unlike Louis Malone or James Murphy, she added another stable gun to Clayton’s repertoire. Removing the need to waste an entire OM to damage a single figure was a big relief for Kate’s effectiveness, and her ability to fish for whiffs complements the other Lawmen abilities well enough in case they come across high-defense figures.

SUMMARY
I waffled on Kate a bit because with the fully expanded Lawmen faction: they can put out some serious work and create an unfun experience for melee players in the right scenarios and maps. Putting out up to 8 attacks in one Order Marker is a huge swing in tempo (and often a relatively low investment given enough rounds to set up), and unless the scenario was designed to account for a way to force the Lawmen to move, it can be miserable trying to break the screen as melee.

However, most of those things can also be said for ranged 4-figure squads in general, except they also have the option of being able to keep up pressure throughout the entire round. The free movement each round also posed a method of counterplay for the opponent, as waiting out the Shootouts before making a push (or pushing early if the opponent relies too heavily on OM3 for Clayton) is a viable strategy. Ultimately, I think that Kate’s contributions to this build are reasonable for her design, and her utility without the build still has a few niche uses to justify her existence.

I vote YEA to induct Kate Crawford into the Soldiers of Valhalla.
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  #7593  
Old April 9th, 2022, 11:24 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Woohoo! The Lawman faction is really starting to come together
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  #7594  
Old April 11th, 2022, 11:37 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Kate Crawford has received 4 Yea votes to induct (Scytale, BiggaBullfrog, superfrog, and Astroking112) and moves forward in the process.
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  #7595  
Old April 11th, 2022, 02:41 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

^Exciting Stuff! them cowboys are turning out to be a pretty neatly themed faction now!

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  #7596  
Old April 11th, 2022, 03:06 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
^Exciting Stuff! them cowboys are turning out to be a pretty neatly themed faction now!
Yeah they basically went from unplayable to one of the coolest factions in heroscape overnight
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