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  #3241  
Old November 21st, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
I'm personally more of a fan of the current A+ tier, possibly with 'trons thrown in.

It seems a bit odd to me to switch to a Raelin/rats only A+ tier when the great Raelin counter (Braxas) and the great rat counter (Heavy Gruts) just had their coming-out party at Gencon.

I suppose a minor concern would being having a glut of 'A' grade units.

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  #3242  
Old November 21st, 2009, 06:46 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?

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  #3243  
Old November 21st, 2009, 06:55 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Because they're not A+
I can see some reasons why they're not.
They only have 3 attacks per OM, and they can be smashed by Anubian Wolves/ Cyprien Army...

Well, not really. I just like knowing that My first win against Spider poison was with that type of army against a stinger army. But I would just say they don't cut A+ because of their 3 attacks per OM and maybe their 5 range. That or Spider is starting to make the A+ tier a more exclusive club then letting in the squads of A+ tier armies.
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  #3244  
Old November 21st, 2009, 06:58 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.




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  #3245  
Old November 21st, 2009, 07:12 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
In that case, can we move Hatamoto Taroble up to A+?
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  #3246  
Old November 21st, 2009, 07:48 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
I know you just meant it as a joke, but Stingers, like Zelrig or Trons, are one of those units that I have done well with but have never had a huge problem beating.

Playing as:

Marro Stingers: 12-3 (80%)
Zelrig: 4-1 (80%)
Gladiatrons: 12-4 (75%)
Blastatrons: 12-4 (75%)

Playing against:
Zelrig: 5-0
Gladiatrons: 3-0
Blastatrons: 3-0
Marro Stingers: 5-1 (6-1) (the parentheses mean that I beat a guy who had just one squad of Stingers once)

On the other hand...

Playing as:
4th Massachusetts Line: 12-4 (75%)
Nilfheim: 26-9 (74.3%)
Knights of Weston: 7-3 (70%)
Sir Gilbert: 7-3 (70%)

Playing against:
Nilfheim: 5-6
Knights of Weston: 2-9 (3-9)
Sir Gilbert: 1-7
4th Massachusetts Line: 0-5

Full list

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; November 21st, 2009 at 08:18 PM. Reason: The more I think about it though, the more I want to roll back to spider's original top 4 as A+: Q, rats, rae, mass
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  #3247  
Old November 21st, 2009, 10:49 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
I know you just meant it as a joke, but Stingers, like Zelrig or Trons, are one of those units that I have done well with but have never had a huge problem beating.
It's not our fault if the people you play against don't know how to use em.

Just look at the top armies at gencon this year.
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  #3248  
Old November 22nd, 2009, 01:48 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmage7a View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
I know you just meant it as a joke, but Stingers, like Zelrig or Trons, are one of those units that I have done well with but have never had a huge problem beating.
It's not our fault if the people you play against don't know how to use em.

Just look at the top armies at gencon this year.
Even the top Marvel army had a boatload of Stingers.
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  #3249  
Old November 22nd, 2009, 01:57 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Migraine View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmage7a View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
I know you just meant it as a joke, but Stingers, like Zelrig or Trons, are one of those units that I have done well with but have never had a huge problem beating.
It's not our fault if the people you play against don't know how to use em.

Just look at the top armies at gencon this year.
Even the top Marvel army had a boatload of Stingers.
That's because stingers excel against high point heroes.

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  #3250  
Old November 22nd, 2009, 01:59 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Migraine View Post
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Originally Posted by Darkmage7a View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GromBloodboy View Post
Sorry to come in late, but does anyone know why the stingers got dropped down to A?
Jexik got tired of losing to them so he lowered them a notch.
I know you just meant it as a joke, but Stingers, like Zelrig or Trons, are one of those units that I have done well with but have never had a huge problem beating.
It's not our fault if the people you play against don't know how to use em.

Just look at the top armies at gencon this year.
Even the top Marvel army had a boatload of Stingers.
That's because stingers excel against high point heroes.
That's probably why it won. I saw very few Marvel armies with Stingers.
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  #3251  
Old November 22nd, 2009, 10:29 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
A+ list to just two units: the Deathreavers and Raelin.
I'd almost be okay with that, but I think Q9 really should stay at the A+ level. I kind of view him as the gold standard for A+ power. Aside from Krug, who has a problem closing with Q9, what other figures can actually match-up with Q9 point-for-point? The answer may be the 4th Mass, in which case maybe they should stay on top too. (Q9 still has the advantage that he can get dropped into any army whereas the 4th Mass rely on everyone being Valiant.)

I don't put much faith skilled players' records against obvious power builds. If they are obvious power builds (armies with Q9, Stingers, etc) it means that they will pop up more frequently in the the hands of less skilled players. You'll see them a lot more and beat them a lot more just because of that.

One question I do have since the Glad/Blast armies are being tossed around as possible A+ units: How do the new soulborg counters do against them? (e.g. Repulsors and Quasatch Hunters)

*Edited my list of figures in power build armies.

Last edited by Vydar; November 22nd, 2009 at 04:43 PM.
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  #3252  
Old November 22nd, 2009, 10:57 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
A+ list to just two units: the Deathreavers and Raelin.
I'd almost be okay with that, but I think Q9 really should stay at the A+ level. I kind of view him as the gold standard for A+ power. Aside from Krug, who has a problem closing with Q9, what other figures can actually match-up with Q9 point-for-point? The answer may be the 4th Mass, in which case maybe they should stay on top too. (Q9 still has the advantage that he can get dropped into any army whereas the 4th Mass rely on everyone being Valiant.)
I think 3x Marro Stingers is pretty even vs. Q9, without glyphs or height involved. Although Q9 should often have height in that matchup. Nilfheim does okay against him as well. A Kaemon Awa even hurt him pretty bad in the tourney I held yesterday.

When I play Trons, I don't even worry about Q9, unless the map stinks for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
I don't put much faith skilled players' records against obvious power builds. If they are obvious power builds (armies Q9, a full contingent of 4th Mass, Stingers) it means that they will pop up more frequently in the the hands of less skilled players. You'll see them a lot more and beat them a lot more just because of that.
Fair enough. This is probably why my records against Raelin, Rats, and Stingers are all decent. They're everywhere. The Mass or Knights each require a certain size collection with old units and/or a flagbearer. Seriousness about the game might be a pretty big confounding variable there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar View Post
One question I do have since the Glad/Blast armies are being tossed around as possible A+ units: How do the new soulborg counters do against them? (e.g. Repulsors and Quasatch Hunters)
I honestly don't know, because it doesn't come up that often. On day 2 this year, Cornpuff drafted 2x Repulsors just to help beat Gamjuven's Glad/Blast combo, and it worked. In my experience though, I haven't seen the Repulsors work that well... but I've only tried once or twice. I've heard that Quasatch seem to go about even with Trons or Q9 style armies, which isn't really that bad. One more 50/50 matchup when most of the tron matchups are really really good isn't the end of the world.

Trons struggle with Krav, rats, and Mass.
Go even with Redcoats.
Crush Arrow Gruts.
Beat just about any melee. (unless you have the perfect map/glyph/aura set up)
Have little problem with just about any army with more than one hero. Etc.

In my opinion, the game is growing to have such a wide array of viable stuff, that losing sleep over any one particular matchup just isn't worth it. Having a gameplan for some of those bad matchups is a good idea, but sacrificing the general power of your army on the off chance that you might face all Quasatch or Repulsors shouldn't be done.

Instead of "can this army beat Q9" or "can this beat the 4th Mass" I think "can this army deal with strong heroes" and "can this army kill squads quickly" are the right questions to ask. I think the Trons are the best hero-killing squad* in the game, and pretty far up there for squads too.



To the general questions about why Gilbert is higher than his squad. It's just that he seems to give such a huge improvement to them, to the point of even being better than Raelin in that case. He's an extremely powerful figure that changes the game around him, and does a lot whether or not he gets targeted. This is a guy that edges out every other champion, Raelin, and even more Knights or 4th Mass in a build that you'd think about including him. That says a lot.

Unlike the 'trons, I don't believe that Sir Gilbert was designed concurrently with the Knights. We had a world with Gilbertless Knights, and they did well, but rarely as well as they do now. Maybe it's the jungle. Maybe it's the smaller maps, but Gilbert is potent and very difficult to effectively counter. Jandar's Dispatch is insanely useful... check out my old 'scaper of the week interview: it was my favorite power in the game. That said, in my next update, I think I'll make him an A, and the Knights an A-. In fact, a lot of stuff will be an A- that wasn't before.

Trons. They're essentially two parts of same unit to me. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to ever have a separate rank.

In general, how specific your build has to be should have no bearing on the power ranking. "How likely is an army including this unit to win a lot of games?" That's the question worth asking. Not "how easy is this army to play?" Not "How many potential armies is this good in?" Not "how many Minions can this kill?" The only units that this might qualify for is the Deathreavers and Raelin, but I think it's largely because they can turn otherwise terrible units into legitimate contenders, and make the best armies even better. They're powerful AND versatile, and basically define Heroscape tourneys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; November 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 PM. Reason: *among ranged units- Minions, Knights and Gruts might be nastier once they get rolling.
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