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View Poll Results: Which unit is better?
Kantono Daishi 6 50.00%
Tomoe Gozen 6 50.00%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old August 6th, 2019, 01:08 PM
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Unit Debate #72 Kantono Daishi vs Tomoe Gozen

I ask that you don't use this format without permission to preserve the quality of the Unit Debates and avoid confusion.

Welcome to the second debate of VC Customs (C3V & SoV) - 1st was Unit Debate #70 Capt. John Varan vs Myrddin.


This Unit Debate was selected by @lefton4ya .

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

NOTE: Debates can now acknowledge the existence and affect of VC Customs (C3V & SoV) on the units
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Old August 6th, 2019, 11:34 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #72 Kantono Daishi vs Tomoe Gozen

Those who know me know that I'm completely neutral and impartial towards the samurai. So here's my unbiased thoughts on this match-up:

1. Stats/Special Powers
They're somewhat even in terms of stats, surprisingly. Kantono gains 1 move and defense in exchange for losing 2 attack dice. He's not as effective of a fighter as Tomoe, given that her attack is much more worthwhile and she can still get up to that 5 defense-with-counterstrike if positioned carefully, but that extra move is definitely nice. Paired with Phantom Walk and the lack of a need to stay adjacent to his team, Kantono is significantly more mobile than Tomoe.

Without looking at their roles as "leaders", I'd say that they're relatively even in terms of stats/individual powers. Tomoe struggles to maintain formation with the Unique Samurai, which hurts her survivability, but the greater attack gives her a better punch while she is alive, while Kantono will be forced to rely on his Counterstrike much more to deal damage.

I think that overall, Tomoe Gozen just barely ekes out her competition. She wins in a landslide.

2. Playability
Loathe as I am to admit it, I think that the ninjas are more "playable" than the samurai, and Kantono is largely the reason why. He provides a lot more freedom in your decision-making when fielding them, whereas with Tomoe you have to juggle Order Markers between the varying Unique Squads that already took damage, hoping that they won't lose two more figures or else you'll be out of luck. She's a powerful addition when she works, but Kantono is much more reliable with his army and avoids many of the pitfalls that the samurai do.

Still, I find the samurai to be ten times more enjoyable to play than the ninjas, so Tomoe wins by a landslide.

3. Overall Usefulness
Kantono's leadership power is better and much easier to use, making the ninjas less of a hassle to play. Meanwhile, Tomoe's bonding only kicks in when you're missing a third of your samurai squad (and requires Order Markers to be juggled between the remaining squads left), and her single attack of 4 is pretty unimpressive for the army if you want to keep her up with your troops before there are any casualties. Kantono has a lot more freedom in selecting the best unit at any given time, isn't forced to take his own turns, and can escape easier once things go south. With his improved mobility, ideally he shouldn't be fighting at all, just slinking around in the shadows. Unfortunately, I think that he's a much more effective controlling figure as a result.

However, when looked at through my objective angle, it's easy to see that Tomoe Gozen makes some of the best units in the game more fun to play. Really, she's far more useful if you think about it, because she encourages people to take samurai more often. It's a win-win for everyone, and as a result it would really be an injustice to say anything other than Tomoe wins by a landslide.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head
Samurai > ninjas. Need I say more? Tomoe wins in a landslide.

5. Army Builds
Kantono has the easy 500 point take-all-ninjas-under-the-sun army. Tomoe plus each of the unique squads puts her forces at 390 points, which is just 10 shy of getting Kaemon Awa, 20 short of getting Hatamoto Taro if you want to lose, or 90 points shy of getting Kato Katsuro if you really feel like wasting points.

You could take the Tagawa Samurai Archers with Tomoe if you wanted, but you don't want to do that. Trust me. I tried.

The samurai builds can find benefits from other sources, though. Rygarn and Raelin both ease the army's problems quite a bit, reducing the odds of a whiff ruining your plans or your Order Markers having been mysteriously placed in the wrong place. Of course, Raelin helps anywhere, but she's especially appreciated in an army full of counterstrike units.

The Ebon Armor also exist, but the Ram Army Box doesn't, so I'll just move on.

All of this is to say that Tomoe Gozen wins in a landslide again, by the way.

6. Best Strategic Use
You could have stategy, or you could have samurai. Tomoe Gozen wins in a landslide.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl
This is probably the most critical question here; we all know that competitive HeroScape largely takes place within dungeons at this point. Luckily, I've found the perfect piece of evidence to answer this here: let's take a look at the last(!) official Dungeon Adventure released. At the end of the scenario, it's revealed that Vydar is betraying the alliance.

What's Vydar known for?

Who is Vydar leading?

That's right, it's Kantono Daishi. Clearly, this means that ninjas are responsible for the cancellation of HeroScape, as Kantono Daishi was secretly plotting a way to instill himself directly into the canon of the game by creating the VC project and moving on to more nefarious aims, namely the conquering and absolute desolation of our world as we know it. The writing's literally, figuratively, and proverbially on the wall, people: Kantono Daishi is plotting the demise of us all, and he must be stopped while we still have a chance! Now's the time when we can rise up and stop the ninjas; now's the time that we've all been waiting for!

So, in other words, Tomoe Gozen wins by a landslide.

I think that the answer for which unit is superior should be pretty clear at this point.
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Old August 6th, 2019, 11:58 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #72 Kantono Daishi vs Tomoe Gozen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Those who know me know that I'm completely neutral and impartial towards the samurai. So here's my unbiased thoughts on this match-up:

1. Stats/Special Powers
They're somewhat even in terms of stats, surprisingly. Kantono gains 1 move and defense in exchange for losing 2 attack dice. He's not as effective of a fighter as Tomoe, given that her attack is much more worthwhile and she can still get up to that 5 defense-with-counterstrike if positioned carefully, but that extra move is definitely nice. Paired with Phantom Walk and the lack of a need to stay adjacent to his team, Kantono is significantly more mobile than Tomoe.

Without looking at their roles as "leaders", I'd say that they're relatively even in terms of stats/individual powers. Tomoe struggles to maintain formation with the Unique Samurai, which hurts her survivability, but the greater attack gives her a better punch while she is alive, while Kantono will be forced to rely on his Counterstrike much more to deal damage.

I think that overall, Tomoe Gozen just barely ekes out her competition. She wins in a landslide.

2. Playability
Loathe as I am to admit it, I think that the ninjas are more "playable" than the samurai, and Kantono is largely the reason why. He provides a lot more freedom in your decision-making when fielding them, whereas with Tomoe you have to juggle Order Markers between the varying Unique Squads that already took damage, hoping that they won't lose two more figures or else you'll be out of luck. She's a powerful addition when she works, but Kantono is much more reliable with his army and avoids many of the pitfalls that the samurai do.

Still, I find the samurai to be ten times more enjoyable to play than the ninjas, so Tomoe wins by a landslide.

3. Overall Usefulness
Kantono's leadership power is better and much easier to use, making the ninjas less of a hassle to play. Meanwhile, Tomoe's bonding only kicks in when you're missing a third of your samurai squad (and requires Order Markers to be juggled between the remaining squads left), and her single attack of 4 is pretty unimpressive for the army if you want to keep her up with your troops before there are any casualties. Kantono has a lot more freedom in selecting the best unit at any given time, isn't forced to take his own turns, and can escape easier once things go south. With his improved mobility, ideally he shouldn't be fighting at all, just slinking around in the shadows. Unfortunately, I think that he's a much more effective controlling figure as a result.

However, when looked at through my objective angle, it's easy to see that Tomoe Gozen makes some of the best units in the game more fun to play. Really, she's far more useful if you think about it, because she encourages people to take samurai more often. It's a win-win for everyone, and as a result it would really be an injustice to say anything other than Tomoe wins by a landslide.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head
Samurai > ninjas. Need I say more? Tomoe wins in a landslide.

5. Army Builds
Kantono has the easy 500 point take-all-ninjas-under-the-sun army. Tomoe plus each of the unique squads puts her forces at 390 points, which is just 10 shy of getting Kaemon Awa, 20 short of getting Hatamoto Taro if you want to lose, or 90 points shy of getting Kato Katsuro if you really feel like wasting points.

You could take the Tagawa Samurai Archers with Tomoe if you wanted, but you don't want to do that. Trust me. I tried.

The samurai builds can find benefits from other sources, though. Rygarn and Raelin both ease the army's problems quite a bit, reducing the odds of a whiff ruining your plans or your Order Markers having been mysteriously placed in the wrong place. Of course, Raelin helps anywhere, but she's especially appreciated in an army full of counterstrike units.

The Ebon Armor also exist, but the Ram Army Box doesn't, so I'll just move on.

All of this is to say that Tomoe Gozen wins in a landslide again, by the way.

6. Best Strategic Use
You could have stategy, or you could have samurai. Tomoe Gozen wins in a landslide.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl
This is probably the most critical question here; we all know that competitive HeroScape largely takes place within dungeons at this point. Luckily, I've found the perfect piece of evidence to answer this here: let's take a look at the last(!) official Dungeon Adventure released. At the end of the scenario, it's revealed that Vydar is betraying the alliance.

What's Vydar known for?

Who is Vydar leading?

That's right, it's Kantono Daishi. Clearly, this means that ninjas are responsible for the cancellation of HeroScape, as Kantono Daishi was secretly plotting a way to instill himself directly into the canon of the game by creating the VC project and moving on to more nefarious aims, namely the conquering and absolute desolation of our world as we know it. The writing's literally, figuratively, and proverbially on the wall, people: Kantono Daishi is plotting the demise of us all, and he must be stopped while we still have a chance! Now's the time when we can rise up and stop the ninjas; now's the time that we've all been waiting for!

So, in other words, Tomoe Gozen wins by a landslide.

I think that the answer for which unit is superior should be pretty clear at this point.
This was funny. Perhaps you should consider a comedy YouTube channel!

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google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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  #4  
Old August 8th, 2019, 12:23 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #72 Kantono Daishi vs Tomoe Gozen

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
This was funny. Perhaps you should consider a comedy YouTube channel!
Great idea. Maybe I could even make a video once every couple of months.
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