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  #25  
Old February 3rd, 2022, 05:10 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

@Chris Perkins, thanks for bringing that up. Map sets definitely add complexity to setup, which is certainly a consideration for TDs.

For "bring maps" gatherings, map sets should still be viable as long as at least one person can provide all three. Often the host provides a few maps, right? And I also think I've seen many instances where an attendee brings multiple maps. But you're right, a 3-map set is not ideal if no one is providing more than 2 maps.

For "build onsite" tournaments (like ScapeCon), it's usually at least two maps per table, right? I envision a builder taking all the terrain bricks needed for the whole map set to one table. Build two of the maps at that table (two builders could even work in parallel from the common terrain pile), then take the leftovers to wherever the third map needs to be built. No wandering around trying to find the right terrain pieces.

It's still messier than building typical maps, because it's a much bigger pile of terrain to work with, but hopefully with the right approach it wouldn't slow things down *too* much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
A few thoughts from a tournament-organization perspective:

1) Tournaments where individual players bring ~ 1 map with them probably will never work for something like this, as it requires each player to have the larger combination of total terrain.

2) Tournaments where one collection is used to build all the maps could theoretically do this. It would be especially easy when one player is using their personal collection, as we typically do in our New England tourneys. I know I personally don't store my terrain by exact set (I have all my green 24 hexes together, not a block of exactly 1 RtoV set).

3) For a tournament like ScapeCon (& GenCon before it), this would certainly be possible, but it would increase the length of time setup takes. A few details on ScapeCon setup: each terrain set is delivered in a compressed brick, and each person who's building a map goes up to the terrain boxes and takes one set of each terrain they need (i.e. 1 RotV, 1 TT, 1 TJ) and brings those to a table to build the map, where they build mostly on their own. This would necessitate sharing those bricks, which would take longer as you'd have to go around looking for individual pieces as you need them. I don't know how much longer it would take, but my guess is that setup goes from something like 2-3 hours to instead 3-4 hours.

Just wanted to add these observations as someone who has been involved in all 3 kinds and has helped with map setup at ScapeCon & GenCon.
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  #26  
Old February 3rd, 2022, 06:18 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

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Originally Posted by GameBear View Post
For "bring maps" gatherings, map sets should still be viable as long as at least one person can provide all three. Often the host provides a few maps, right? And I also think I've seen many instances where an attendee brings multiple maps. But you're right, a 3-map set is not ideal if no one is providing more than 2 maps.
Yes, if someone could bring all 3 then it would be fine. I was thinking more along the lines of some of the monthly events, like Utah runs, where I tend to see individuals post single maps that they intend to bring. Having done this a bit myself, one big difference there is that one map fits comfortably in a small car while 3 maps don't always (I have a smaller 4-door sedan, for reference).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GameBear View Post
For "build onsite" tournaments (like ScapeCon), it's usually at least two maps per table, right? I envision a builder taking all the terrain bricks needed for the whole map set to one table. Build two of the maps at that table (two builders could even work in parallel from the common terrain pile), then take the leftovers to wherever the third map needs to be built. No wandering around trying to find the right terrain pieces.
Yes, there's usually multiple maps per table. At ScapeCon this past year, there was 3 long tables with ~ 8 maps each and then two side tables with one map each (used for streaming / recording). So building all 3 next to each other could certainly be a viable strategy, at least for > 50% of the maps.

@OEAO might be able to provide more information on ScapeCon viability than I am though.

It's also worth noting one category I failed to mention in my original post: online events (OHS / single day live / etc.). For them, there's absolutely no limitation and a new pool of maps would be exclusively a plus.
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  #27  
Old February 3rd, 2022, 08:46 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

Personally, one downside I see to the "three maps from a pool of terrain" idea is that typically tournaments strive to have some variety in mapmakers represented in the total tournament pool. Putting three maps by a single person all or nothing in the pool could lead to that person being a large percentage of maps at the event. Also, if the quality of even one map in the set of 3 is low, the whole pool may not be usable at tournaments. Not trying to shoot it down, it's a very creative idea, but I feel like it has some challenges.
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  #28  
Old February 3rd, 2022, 09:34 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

Excellent idea. As others have pointed out there are some drawbacks, but I don't believe they outway the positives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Also, if the quality of even one map in the set of 3 is low, the whole pool may not be usable at tournaments. Not trying to shoot it down, it's a very creative idea, but I feel like it has some challenges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
1) Tournaments where individual players bring ~ 1 map with them probably will never work for something like this, as it requires each player to have the larger combination of total terrain.
Each individual map isn't that terrain demanding. You can easily just bring one map from a pool. Just eyeballing the maps it looks like they each use four sets. By comparison, of the 10 WoS maps, one uses four sets, and six use three. Substantially opening the design space at a cost of one extra set is a ratio I'm happy to pay.
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  #29  
Old February 3rd, 2022, 11:12 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

On the context of the Utah scene, I have enough terrain that I could build every map, every single month, but I rarely build the maps before the event, so it saves a lot of time if I'm not the only one providing the maps. I usually play a fill role here, where I bring whatever maps aren't claimed by others. If some interesting map collections were made, we would definitely consider using them. They would just be delegated to those that have the terrain needed.
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  #30  
Old February 4th, 2022, 04:42 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

Logistically, I don't think it's a problem for ScapeCon. It's fine to have three maps built out of the same sets. Just bring the requisite bags to the table and build probably two at the same time, then the third. We can always move maps around later with poster boards.

If all three in a set are great, I'd certainly consider using them! I think this is a great, if ambitious, idea, and I'm always excited to see continued progress in the map community. I also wouldn't mind seeing more of the (slightly less ambitious) two-map pairs- I'm not sure there's a single great pair out there yet, although I could be mistaken. Of course, even properly executing that is quite difficult.

Edit: One other consideration in building the pool beyond balance is looking to have a diverse pool. We want some maps that are easy to play on, and others that are a bit more challenging. Of course, it can be tough to draw the line on when a map is too challenging to play on- it’s something I’m certainly not the best judge of, because I love challenging maps. But essentially, if all three maps in a set are very similar, there’s less of a chance I’d use them.

Last edited by OEAO; February 4th, 2022 at 06:18 PM.
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  #31  
Old February 4th, 2022, 08:59 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

Quote:
Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
Each individual map isn't that terrain demanding... Just eyeballing the maps it looks like they each use four sets.
Well..

Judgment: 6 sets - 1 DD (water) + 2 MH + 1 FA + 1 FF + 1 TT
Barrentop: 5 sets - 1 SM (sand) + 1 DD + 2 MH + 1 TT
Viridis: 6 sets - 1 SM + 1 DD (rock) + 2 MH (grass) + 1 FA + 1 FF

As individual maps, they average 5.7 terrain sets used; when viewed as a map set, the average falls to 2.3 terrain sets per map. If these maps were redesigned independently (with terrain substitutions), then yes, they could each be built using four terrain sets. As an example:

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  #32  
Old February 5th, 2022, 09:21 AM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

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Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
I also wouldn't mind seeing more of the (slightly less ambitious) two-map pairs- I'm not sure there's a single great pair out there yet, although I could be mistaken. Of course, even properly executing that is quite difficult.
Hmmmm, two-map pairs.....
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  #33  
Old September 4th, 2022, 03:52 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

Ooh, so much GameBear map goodness to catch up on. Another great idea. Though I think I'll start conservative at 2/2 instead of the original 3/3.

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  #34  
Old December 5th, 2022, 05:55 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

I think you could actually make some pretty interesting maps without even doing 2/2. For instance, I believe you could make two pretty interesting maps from RotV + SotM + FotA. There have been plenty of interesting maps made from just SotM + FotA (Cage Match and Embattled Fen are two of my favorite maps ever), so replacing 1/2 SotM with 1/2 RotV at the cost of 1/2 FotA seems like it would still give you a lot to work with.

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Old December 7th, 2022, 12:21 AM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps

I was inspired by this thread to go and post a new idea.

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  #36  
Old December 10th, 2022, 07:42 PM
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Re: Expanding the design space for competitive maps



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ilh...ew?usp=sharing


I wanted to take a stab at this concept. It was a fun challenge and I think I came up with some neat maps. The maps in the file above use the following:


1 RotV
1 SotM
2 RttFF
1 FotA
1 VW
1 TJ


I really like the idea of breaking the 1 master 2 expansion formula. I'll be looking into making maps using the "remixed" sets soon. It was tough to stretch 2 master sets across three maps but that was a condition I imposed on myself that required a little creativity to work around. I wanted to offer a collection of maps that I thought could be made by the majority of players.


If we had a few more people make map sets like this we could have some really unique map pools for events.

Last edited by GeneralRolando; December 11th, 2022 at 01:37 PM.
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