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  #25  
Old January 11th, 2007, 11:08 AM
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Cavalier Cavalier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homba
That's a tough one... what does "every Army Card you control" mean?

...

If the AE are in your otherwise all-Valiant army, it's an "Army Card you control" (part of YOUR army, not a 'friendly' army) and you don't get the 4th Mass 'Valiant Army' bonus. If the AE have been destroyed, then per the FAQ ruling you get the bonus.

The fact that you don't "physically control" the unit (at least not more than rolling the d20 for them) until they drop doesn't matter. Until they're destroyed, they're part of your army and thus an "army card you control."

That's how I see it. Your milage may vary.

H
But according to that logic, then the bonus doesn't apply even when the AE are destroyed, because you still control the army card.
exactly


Man I wish it was closer to Gencon, then somebody could ask Craig and Rob face to face.

Even if this question gets sent up to WotC, nobody is going to change their mind until it hits the FAQ, and even then, some people won't change their minds :P

However, the only way to get it to the FAQ is to submit the question, so let's see if we can get it formalized referencing the existing relevant FAQ's

That's my 2¢
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  #26  
Old January 11th, 2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier
However, the only way to get it to the FAQ is to submit the question, so let's see if we can get it formalized referencing the existing relevant FAQ's

That's my 2¢
Any volunteers on the formulation of the submittal

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  #27  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Quicksilver62160 Quicksilver62160 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homba
That's a tough one... what does "every Army Card you control" mean?

...

If the AE are in your otherwise all-Valiant army, it's an "Army Card you control" (part of YOUR army, not a 'friendly' army) and you don't get the 4th Mass 'Valiant Army' bonus. If the AE have been destroyed, then per the FAQ ruling you get the bonus.

The fact that you don't "physically control" the unit (at least not more than rolling the d20 for them) until they drop doesn't matter. Until they're destroyed, they're part of your army and thus an "army card you control."

That's how I see it. Your milage may vary.

H
But according to that logic, then the bonus doesn't apply even when the AE are destroyed, because you still control the army card.
Umm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HS.com FAQ about the 4th Mass' Valiant Bonus
If my non-Valiant figures are destroyed, and only Valiant figures are left on the battlefield, can the 4th Massachusetts Line use their Valiant Army Defense Bonus?
Yes.
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  #28  
Old January 11th, 2007, 12:38 PM
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This is a tough one, but if your army gets the Valiant bonus until the AE drop, it finally gives me a reason to see why someone might roll the d20, allowing a drop, and then decide not to take the drop option, reconsidering the value at that point in the game of the all Valiant army. This one might make those four years in "rules' law school" worth it. <grin>
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  #29  
Old January 11th, 2007, 01:01 PM
Ketch Ketch is offline
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The real question is,
Does controlling an army mean it is on the battlefield.
The FAQ ruling for dead armies could be alluding to the fact that armies NOT on the battlefield are not controlled by anyone.
I would lean toward this definition as well because it is consistent with the FAQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by HS.com FAQ about the 4th Mass' Valiant Bonus
If my non-Valiant figures are destroyed, and only Valiant figures are left on the battlefield, can the 4th Massachusetts Line use their Valiant Army Defense Bonus?
Yes.
If we assume this FAQ is a rule clarification and not a rule change, then that means the original card and the FAQ are both true at the same time and have the same meaning, just one is more clear than the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th Mass. Card
Valiant Army Defense Bonus
If every army card you control has a valiant personality,
each soldier in the 4th Mass. Line receives 1 additional defense die.
I would suggest Army cards you control and armies left on the battlefield are equivalent in meaning, and were both used to describe the same thing in the FAQ and the card.

::Nathan Hoel::
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  #30  
Old January 11th, 2007, 01:52 PM
Homba Homba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homba
If the AE are in your otherwise all-Valiant army, it's an "Army Card you control" (part of YOUR army, not a 'friendly' army) and you don't get the 4th Mass 'Valiant Army' bonus. If the AE have been destroyed, then per the FAQ ruling you get the bonus.
But according to that logic, then the bonus doesn't apply even when the AE are destroyed, because you still control the army card.
ej, I explained how that's not true, right above (as Quicksilver observed).

The discussion so far has been hung up on the idea of "Army Cards you control" meaning some sort of physical control of the units. Whether you can give the AE order markers when they haven't been in the game yet. Whether rolling the d20 for the AE qualifies as controlling them or not.

I'm saying that's not the right question to be asking. This is being made into something very complicated when it is actually something simple. This is the Ki-Mo-Shi issue all over again. "Army Cards you control" is merely an established pattern of card-speak. It simply means army cards of YOUR army, NOT friendly cards - allowing the 4th Mass to get their Valiant Army bonus even if some units of an allied (friendly) army are not valiant.

It turned out that "after attacking" was established card-speak for Ki-Mo-Shi, not some new terminology. This will turn out the same way. You don't have to finagle some new understanding of what "control of an army card" means in the case of the AE. You already have the definition: "You control" the army card because it is in YOUR army.

The FAQ ruling that once non-valiant forces are destroyed the 4th Mass get their bonus, is merely a sub-rule. It doesn't conflict with the above understanding. While your AE are alive (whether on board or incoming) they're still YOUR units (an "Army Card you control"). The FAQ simply rules that after they are destroyed, the 4th Mass would get their bonus if only Valiant units remained. Whether or not a destroyed unit's card is still an "Army Card you control" is moot, because the FAQ rules on that very issue.

Like the KMS issue, your base assumptions are important here. If you think "Army Cards you control" is an established concept identifying YOUR army, you agree with me. If you think it is something new involving the "physical control" of the card (whether you can place order markers on it, etc) then you are justified in your argument for the new position.

Like KMS, only the designers can tell us what they intended when they wrote this ability, and there is no way to know otherwise. Like KMS, they could potentially rule either way because there is no technical argument preventing the language from being interpreted in either direction. They are even free to change their minds from their original intent if they prefer one idea over the other - the card's text doesn't constrain them.

But I'll bet the farm this turns out just like KMS. The old, simple interpretation will prevail. I will grant you a "Nice Try!," but yall are gona take this one on the chin. I'm surprised at the level of confidence in the resistance after the lesson of the KMS ruling. Established patterns of card-speak are decisive. Cavalier, weren't you on the conservative/traditional side of the KMS argument? Don't you see what I'm saying?

We gotta throw the gauntlet at Wizards with this one. These are popular, tourney-caliber units that are surely sometimes used together.

H

PS- Thanks & well done to those responsible for getting the boards back up!!!
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  #31  
Old January 11th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Ketch Ketch is offline
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Actually, I was disagreeing with you Homba, hahaha.
I see where you are coming from though.

The view I posted is simply one possibility.
Yours seems to be the original intent for the wording "Army cards you control" is simply meant to be taken in the context of yours, NOT your team mate, not your enemies.

However, I was suggesting that after the FAQ was ruled on this card, they realized that they needed to add more to the definition of Cards you Control to be extended to mean only the cards currently on the battlefield.
Thats making the assumption it was a clarification of the card text.
If we go simply with the card text I'd say all units you selected or mind shackled count against it, but since the FAQ was created, I lean toward the fact that any cards not on the battlefield are not in your control.

::Nathan Hoel::
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  #32  
Old January 11th, 2007, 01:58 PM
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Homba, you've convinced me on this one. The simple answer (as usual) is the right one. "Control" means that the army card is sitting there in front of you and not yet dead.
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  #33  
Old January 11th, 2007, 02:06 PM
Homba Homba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketch
Actually, I was disagreeing with you Homba, hahaha.
I see where you are coming from though.

The view I posted is simply one possibility.
Yours seems to be the original intent for the wording "Army cards you control" is simply meant to be taken in the context of yours, NOT your team mate, not your enemies.

However, I was suggesting that after the FAQ was ruled on this card, they realized that they needed to add more to the definition of Cards you Control to be extended to mean only the cards currently on the battlefield.
Thats making the assumption it was a clarification of the card text.
If we go simply with the card text I'd say all units you selected or mind shackled count against it, but since the FAQ was created, I lean toward the fact that any cards not on the battlefield are not in your control.
Hehe, Ketch I saw that you actually disagreed almost immediately and edited my post. Not quick enough. Hey, you might be right. But my bet is placed...

Thanks for the vote of confidence Rev.
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  #34  
Old January 11th, 2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ej
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homba
That's a tough one... what does "every Army Card you control" mean?

...

If the AE are in your otherwise all-Valiant army, it's an "Army Card you control" (part of YOUR army, not a 'friendly' army) and you don't get the 4th Mass 'Valiant Army' bonus. If the AE have been destroyed, then per the FAQ ruling you get the bonus.

The fact that you don't "physically control" the unit (at least not more than rolling the d20 for them) until they drop doesn't matter. Until they're destroyed, they're part of your army and thus an "army card you control."

That's how I see it. Your milage may vary.

H
But according to that logic, then the bonus doesn't apply even when the AE are destroyed, because you still control the army card.
ej, I see what you are trying to say but there is a distinct difference. Once all units associated with an Army card are destroyed that Army card, for all intents and purposes, no longer exists so it's impossible for you to control it. However, as long as the unit is not destroyed it is still a part of your Army and under your control. The function of you rolling the d20 at the beginning of every round is you controlling the drop of the AE. Whether you are successful with your roll or not is irrelevant.
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  #35  
Old January 11th, 2007, 02:11 PM
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Sure thing, Homba. Although interesting, this one is fairly clear cut, really, I think.
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  #36  
Old January 11th, 2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HS.com FAQ about the 4th Mass' Valiant Bonus
If my non-Valiant figures are destroyed, and only Valiant figures are left on the battlefield, can the 4th Massachusetts Line use their Valiant Army Defense Bonus?
Yes.
Since this FAQ specifically mentions the figures being destroyed, it cannot be used in the argument that "on the battlefield" is relevant to the question at hand. The Valiant Army Defense Bonus states "... every army card you control ...", I still believe that you control the AE even before they bounce on the battlefield.
I like to ground my own judgements about HS rules in the real world as much as possible. When an army attacks using both ground forces and airborne units, both of the forces are under the control of the commander, even before their boots hit the ground. On the other hand, that commander has no control over any of his troops once they are dead.
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