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View Poll Results: How do you interpret the word "random" in these situations
Players MUST always roll a dice or shuffle the order markers and without either player looking 7 16.67%
Owner MUST shuffle/rearrange OMs but can look before the player chooses which he/she removes 0 0%
Owner CAN shuffle/rearrange OMs and can look before the player chooses, but is not required 8 19.05%
Owner CAN rearrange OMs but MUST do while looking before the player chooses, but is not required 1 2.38%
Owner CANNOT shuffle/rearrange OMs before the player chooses. OMs must be placed strategically 17 40.48%
Depends on who you play with and mood players are in, but can be decided differently each game 9 21.43%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #13  
Old January 21st, 2021, 02:40 PM
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FWIW

Online assigns random numbers to each OM (unless you're me and give them all unique punny names) as it's the cleanest way to distinguish multiple OMs on a players card (although you do have to set it each round or otherwise it adds more numbers onto the previous set which means it becomes trivial to figure out which OM is which). However, from what I've seen the player pretty much always decides which of those random numbers they want and it's how I would rule as a TD there.

In real life, I would default to the Gencon rule. I think the only appreciable difference between the Gencon ruling and OHS ruling is the medium through which information is transmitted.

~Dysole, noting this is not the only, but probably the worst case of connotations not matching the intent in Scape language
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  #14  
Old January 21st, 2021, 02:42 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
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Originally Posted by Brewster View Post
I don't see why "clear rules" and "friendly fun" have to be mutually exclusive. I do not accept this dichotomy.

What is friendly about fudging the rules? Faking reality to satisfy someone. Seems to me this has simply fostered an environment where more and more generous faking is expected.

It's not fun, in my mind, to be put in a scenario where you rightfully should have a 50/50 lease on life, and you are expected to just give away that chance so your opponent can fudge the rules in his/her advantage. You know what's fun for me? Rolling the dice and seeing if I get lucky. Luck makes for hilariously epic games. Win or lose.
You are more than welcome to do what you want in home games. You have laid out a different way to rule this than the GenCon rules team, and that's fine! Our ruling is that because the opponent does not know which OM is which, choosing one is sufficiently random.

But I will push back on the notion that we're "fudging the rules" simply because you don't agree with the ruling. This is an example of "clear rules"; this is the standard for competitive play (at GenCon). If you want to change that, the burden is on you to prove why our current ruling is erroneous. It isn't enough to just say it could, or perhaps even should, be ruled the other way. You need to make the case as to why it MUST be ruled the other way, and you have not adequately made that case yet. Again, we are certainly open to reevaluating our rulings.

As a quick aside, is a thread with a current list of GenCon rulings something that the community would like to see? Most people that play at GenCon are aware of the rulings we use, but perhaps that would be helpful?
Do things however you want, but don't tell me that's randomized. It's not. The proof is that "random" has a specific meaning, and that clear language is vital for operating mentally. Just as you would not warn someone a room had a "puppy" in it when really there was a wild wolf inside, and that despite convention sometimes referring to all canines as puppies, the person's proper course of action is determined by the specific meaning of the word used. Such is the same in a game. How to play the game should follow from the instructions on the card and rulebooks. If the rules do not adequately describe how the game ought to be played, an errata (or at the very least, an official ruling in the BOOK) should be the proper course of action.

However this is decided, I would like it to be officially ruled on somewhere for future reference.
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  #15  
Old January 21st, 2021, 02:44 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

My computer is updating, so all I can muster is a quick text, but I’ve already officially ruled on this multiple times (both in this thread and the other). I don’t have the power to edit the book.
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  #16  
Old January 21st, 2021, 03:13 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
FWIW, option 5 is the GenCon ruling. Play them where they lay. The card doesn’t say to shuffle them.
Can you shuffle your order markers on your own turn? Since this option says you cannot do so before order marker removal, I assume it's legal on your own turns to change order every time.
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  #17  
Old January 21st, 2021, 03:15 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
FWIW, option 5 is the GenCon ruling. Play them where they lay. The card doesn’t say to shuffle them.
Can you shuffle your order markers on your own turn? Since this option says you cannot do so before order marker removal, I assume it's legal on your own turns to change order every time.
My ruling (and I’ll defer to Ken on this) would be to treat OMs like figures: feel free to manipulate their position on your own turn, but leave them alone on your opponent’s.
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  #18  
Old January 21st, 2021, 03:26 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
FWIW, option 5 is the GenCon ruling. Play them where they lay. The card doesn’t say to shuffle them.
Can you shuffle your order markers on your own turn? Since this option says you cannot do so before order marker removal, I assume it's legal on your own turns to change order every time.
I guess I don't see the point. Other than if someone wants to be a huge jackwagon and have like extra 2s and 3s, etc up his sleeve and do some cheating crap. How is it any different than just placing them down "strategically" (I believe that is the word being throw around it my limited reading of this "issue").

I can try and catch up on all the reading here but it might not be til the weekend but I feel like I'm missing the big point somewhere.

The point is for your opponent not to know which OM it is. Which heroscape (geniusly?) did by making them UNREVELAED OMs. I'm not sure why there is discussion beyond that.

You succeed in your mind blast, point to an OM on the unit. Your opponent removes it or puts it face down (but does not reveal it to you until it's that turn of the round) and you move on with the game. Simple.

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; January 21st, 2021 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Am I missing some info somewhere?
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  #19  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:10 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

As I understand it, the question is basically about what happens if your opponent wasn't thinking about your OM removing power and just placed his OMs on a particular card in numerical order with the X last.

My personal feeling is that not letting the opponent shuffle the OMs in this scenario would be a pretty jerk move, since the only way it makes a difference is if you think that you can get a non-random OM (e.g. one that's not the X) by preventing your opponent from shuffling, in which case you're trying to go against the card's specification of a "random" OM.

On the other hand, if your opponent is keeping your OM removal power in mind when placing their OMs and shuffles their order at the start of the round, it seems like a waste of time to roll a die or make them shuffle again. Basically, if your opponent feels the need to shuffle the OMs to make your selection "random", and they express this before you've chosen an OM to remove, let them shuffle, otherwise, just pick an OM.

~KoS, noting that even in math it can be hard to use the word "random" unambiguously (technically a selection where there's a 99% chance of picking the leftmost OM is random, it just doesn't follow a uniform distribution)
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  #20  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:22 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
As I understand it, the question is basically about what happens if your opponent wasn't thinking about your OM removing power and just placed his OMs on a particular card in numerical order with the X last.

My personal feeling is that not letting the opponent shuffle the OMs in this scenario would be a pretty jerk move, since the only way it makes a difference is if you think that you can get a non-random OM (e.g. one that's not the X) by preventing your opponent from shuffling, in which case you're trying to go against the card's specification of a "random" OM.

On the other hand, if your opponent is keeping your OM removal power in mind when placing their OMs and shuffles their order at the start of the round, it seems like a waste of time to roll a die or make them shuffle again. Basically, if your opponent feels the need to shuffle the OMs to make your selection "random", and they express this before you've chosen an OM to remove, let them shuffle, otherwise, just pick an OM.

~KoS, noting that even in math it can be hard to use the word "random" unambiguously (technically a selection where there's a 99% chance of picking the leftmost OM is random, it just doesn't follow a uniform distribution)
Ineresting, but doesn't that end up being on you? Like if I forgot Sharwin had a lightning attack that could bounce from unit to unit do I get to replace my figures before you attack?

I also think the random element is not knowing which OM you sniped because it's not facing you. For instance, you obviously can't randomize one OM, so since it can't be randomized does that negate the ability if the opponent only has one OM on the card because then it's not random at all? Unless they mean random as in from the perspective that the OM isn't facing you so you don't know for sure which one it is.

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  #21  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:44 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

There's no advantage to moving your OMs to a "strategic" position after placing them, except that you might have forgot to place them strategically initially. So let's say your opponent moves out the Mindflayer on his OM1 and you realize you need to disguise your left to right 1 2 3 X placement before his next turn with the Mindflayer when he can knock off one of your OMs.

In general in competitive games (where I'm playing armies with relevant OM management) I do physically place my OMs "strategically", just so my opponent doesn't try to read my OMs based on their physical placement. I doubt this has ever changed the outcome of a game though.

I do agree with KoS that not letting your opponent do that sort of shuffling during "your turn", if you hit a Psionic Blast, is a bit mean. It's just something they forgot to do, there's no game skill involved, and it actually is a huge impact on the outcome of the game because it vastly changes the power of the OM removal. To be honest I'd probably let my opponent do it if they asked to unless I was playing dok.
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  #22  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:48 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
There's no advantage to moving your OMs to a "strategic" position after placing them, except that you might have forgot to place them strategically initially. So let's say your opponent moves out the Mindflayer on his OM1 and you realize you need to disguise your left to right 1 2 3 X placement before his next turn with the Mindflayer when he can knock off one of your OMs.

In general in competitive games (where I'm playing armies with relevant OM management) I do physically place my OMs "strategically", just so my opponent doesn't try to read my OMs based on their physical placement. I doubt this has ever changed the outcome of a game though.

I do agree with KoS that not letting your opponent do that sort of shuffling during "your turn", if you hit a Psionic Blast, is a bit mean. It's just something they forgot to do, there's no game skill involved, and it actually is a huge impact on the outcome of the game because it vastly changes the power of the OM removal. To be honest I'd probably let my opponent do it if they asked to unless I was playing dok.
I plan on playing MFM x 5 for the main event and I'm going to watch you place your OMs like a hawk.

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  #23  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
There's no advantage to moving your OMs to a "strategic" position after placing them, except that you might have forgot to place them strategically initially. So let's say your opponent moves out the Mindflayer on his OM1 and you realize you need to disguise your left to right 1 2 3 X placement before his next turn with the Mindflayer when he can knock off one of your OMs.

In general in competitive games (where I'm playing armies with relevant OM management) I do physically place my OMs "strategically", just so my opponent doesn't try to read my OMs based on their physical placement. I doubt this has ever changed the outcome of a game though.

I do agree with KoS that not letting your opponent do that sort of shuffling during "your turn", if you hit a Psionic Blast, is a bit mean. It's just something they forgot to do, there's no game skill involved, and it actually is a huge impact on the outcome of the game because it vastly changes the power of the OM removal. To be honest I'd probably let my opponent do it if they asked to unless I was playing dok.
I plan on playing MFM x 5 for the main event and I'm going to watch you place your OMs like a hawk.
500 points/10 figures or something? ~_^

~Dysole, who'd probably run Sudema and something if that was the actual GC setup; don't have to worry about this OM business just kill things
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  #24  
Old January 21st, 2021, 04:50 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Ineresting, but doesn't that end up being on you? Like if I forgot Sharwin had a lightning attack that could bounce from unit to unit do I get to replace my figures before you attack?

I also think the random element is not knowing which OM you sniped because it's not facing you. For instance, you obviously can't randomize one OM, so since it can't be randomized does that negate the ability if the opponent only has one OM on the card because then it's not random at all? Unless they mean random as in from the perspective that the OM isn't facing you so you don't know for sure which one it is.
If it's clearly specified before the game that "random" just means "chosen without looking", and the opponent just forgets then I guess that you can reasonqbly say it's on them (although personally, I'd let them shuffle). If the person believed that "random" meant "selected by a die roll", then I don't think that their interpretation is really less valid, and making them sufdenly play by yours seems unfair.

I would assume that in this context "random" means that each unrevealed OM on the card equally likely to be chosen from your perspective. Whether this is accomplished by your opponent shuffling their OMs at the start of the round so that the first OM is equally likely to have any number, or whether it's accomplished by rolling a die to select an OM doesn't matter. If there is only one unrevealed OM, it trivially has the same probability of being revealed as every other OM on the card.

If anything, your interpretation of random as "you don't know which one it is" is the one that breaks down in the edge cases. It's possible to have a scenario where all but one of your opponent's OMs are revealed. For example, if they've taken 2 turns and revealed their X for a special power, you could know with certainty that the single unrevealed OM on their army card is a 3. But you surely wouldn't say that in this case you couldn't remove the 3, just because you know what it is.
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