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  #337  
Old November 10th, 2020, 07:37 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

He's really cool

As always I still think he may fair better with Romans over Greeks, though he honestly might be best with some Einar Imperium (having those in your army ought to ensure you're always outnumbered, if you know what I mean $$$).

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  #338  
Old November 10th, 2020, 07:58 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

Leo looks pretty cool. I like the Disciplined restriction. Did you try him at 5 life at any point? I know that 5 attacks could be a little crazy, but he has to survive at 1 life for that to happen. Regardless, Spartan fury has a fun Krug feel to it, where you both want to attack, and yet don't want to attack.
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  #339  
Old November 10th, 2020, 08:42 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

I like Leonides.

Few things:

1) you don't need the defense buff, since it won't ever matter since it's activating only on their (the buffed units turn) turn...i.e. their move/attack/defense is only active WHILE they're taking their turn, so the defense buff doesn't actually do anything.

2) I think the ability is a just a bit "too much" going on. it's close, but I think the fat can be trimmed:
- I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
- What is the theme or idea behind the opponent having more figures? That feels just a bit too "customy" especially because it get's really hairy and confusing when you're trying to determine figures you control versus figures in your army...and not many people recognize or understand the difference...but it is significant here.
- Playtesting would determine this, but I think he's going to test quite strong combined with the Legos and Honor Guard. Especially with the Legos, his passive buff plus MDG could make for some insane stat boosts for the Legos.
- Suggested update to the power:

Quote:
FOR GREATER GLORY
If every Army Card you control has a Disciplined personality, and every opposing player controls more figures than you control, then every figure you control with a range of 1 that started this turn within 5 clear sight spaces of Leonidas becomes inspired. Inspired figures add 1 to their move and attack, and defense. Leonidas is not affected by his own For Greater Glory.
3) I really like Spartan Fury, but like Leaf, 5 life just feels better for the Spartan Hero...but I'm not married to that, I think 4 could probably be fine...especially with the 5 def. That said, he doesn't feel like a 3 Att hero either. I'd probably prefer a 4At/4Def 5 Life here. I feel like that makes more sense for this epic Spartan hero.
- maybe to keep it from being OP you say "if at least 2 wounds are on Leonides he may attack one additional time". Then the theme is still that wounding him enrages him, then his attacks aren't becoming too insane for every wound AND you could even increase his attack because he's an epic hero. Honestly with that wording I'd definitely put him at 4 or 5 attack. 2 big attacks of 4 or 5 with this heroic spartan seems way more intimidating and furious then a bunch of little attacks of 3. Just my opinon.
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  #340  
Old November 10th, 2020, 10:29 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I like Leonides.
- I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
I can think of at least two more; neither the B11 Resistance Fighters nor the 10th Regiment of Foot need any more buffs in my opinion
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  #341  
Old November 11th, 2020, 01:53 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

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Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I like Leonides.
- I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
I can think of at least two more; neither the B11 Resistance Fighters nor the 10th Regiment of Foot need any more buffs in my opinion
oh right, good point.
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  #342  
Old November 11th, 2020, 02:27 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I like Leonides.
- I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
I can think of at least two more; neither the B11 Resistance Fighters nor the 10th Regiment of Foot need any more buffs in my opinion
oh right, good point.
Airborne Elite and Tagawa Samurai archers are also disciplined. Plenty of reasons not to apply the buff to ranged units.

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I like Leonides.

Few things:

1) you don't need the defense buff, since it won't ever matter since it's activating only on their (the buffed units turn) turn...i.e. their move/attack/defense is only active WHILE they're taking their turn, so the defense buff doesn't actually do anything.
Does For Greater Glory only activate on your turns? It just says it applies to figures that started "this turn" within 5 spaces of Leonides, but it seems to me like "this turn" could be your opponent's? Either way, it might be good to clarify in the power text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
2) I think the ability is a just a bit "too much" going on. it's close, but I think the fat can be trimmed:[indent] - I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
- What is the theme or idea behind the opponent having more figures? That feels just a bit too "customy" especially because it get's really hairy and confusing when you're trying to determine figures you control versus figures in your army...and not many people recognize or understand the difference...but it is significant here.
I agree that the "have fewer figures than all opponents" condition feels kind of finicky. Since it's checked every turn, and therefore can keep switching on and off, having to constantly keep track of exactly how many figures everyone has seems like it could get annoying. Intentionally trying to avoid killing enemies so that you can keep being outnumbered also feels a bit weird theme-wise.

I'd probably prefer something like having the power be active if at least half of the figures in your army have been destroyed. That way, you only have to count your own figures, and once the power starts activating it keeps activating and you don't have to constantly recount how many figures everyone has (barring Sturla shenanigans or something).

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  #343  
Old November 11th, 2020, 09:38 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

The outnumbered clause is definitely shooting for Theme (it being Leonidas after all). Perhaps it should only be done once at the beginning of the game, though that'd make him near-exclusively a counterdraft (or highly risky blind pick) and would probably require a big price hike.

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  #344  
Old November 12th, 2020, 01:53 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

Thanks for the comments, everyone! I greatly appreciate all of them.

Something else that Captain Stupendous expressed to me privately was a potentially overwhelming Monk + Leonidas build at higher point totals, when dropping 90 points on Parmenio to make Master Lao Xin Disciplined becomes feasible. I'm heavily leaning towards limiting For Greater Glory's boosts solely to squad figures to limit this behavior--Shaolin Monks with up to 5A with Whirlwind Assault does not sound fun to go up against, even if it is hard to maintain. Of course, this might not be a problem in practice, but it's definitely more open to possible exploits if it also boosts heroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
He's really cool

As always I still think he may fair better with Romans over Greeks, though he honestly might be best with some Einar Imperium (having those in your army ought to ensure you're always outnumbered, if you know what I mean $$$).

~TAF
Thanks! I agree that he's probably better with Romans still, though it is worth noting that they comparatively gain less than the Sacred Band do, since they either have to give up Me-Burq-Sa or suicide him early to achieve the bonus. As figure numbers dwindle, they also have a slightly tougher time maintaining the Shield Wall, while the Sacred Band are mostly unaffected.

And the Einar Imperium are a fantastic way to be outnumbered, even in the early game. Another potentially cool example would be Samurai, though the Imperium definitely benefit more since a 4th defense die is critical for Kiova's defense reroll and Double Attack with flying is great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Leo looks pretty cool. I like the Disciplined restriction. Did you try him at 5 life at any point? I know that 5 attacks could be a little crazy, but he has to survive at 1 life for that to happen. Regardless, Spartan fury has a fun Krug feel to it, where you both want to attack, and yet don't want to attack.
He was originally 5L/4A/4D, actually. When Spartan Fury was added, I dropped the life to 4 because I felt like 5 attacks of 4 was too aggressive for a 100 point bonding hero. The drop to 3A definitely makes it feel more reasonable (and like you said, it's a bit of the Krug effect where it can be difficult to get the full effect). 5L/4D seems like it could be reasonable, though it is worth noting that would bring Romans/Sacred Band up to a max of 9 attacks of 3 per turn (and at 4-5D and with sturdier squaddies, he's tougher to take down than Krug). It'd need careful testing to make sure that it isn't overwhelming for sure.

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Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
1) you don't need the defense buff, since it won't ever matter since it's activating only on their (the buffed units turn) turn...i.e. their move/attack/defense is only active WHILE they're taking their turn, so the defense buff doesn't actually do anything.
Does For Greater Glory only activate on your turns? It just says it applies to figures that started "this turn" within 5 spaces of Leonides, but it seems to me like "this turn" could be your opponent's? Either way, it might be good to clarify in the power text.
My intention was indeed that all three would apply on any turn (similar to Spartacus' Gladiator Inspiration), even on an opponent's turn. Movement is weird with auras, though, so I tried shortcutting on the wording a bit to avoid having to break it off into its own clause.

That said, looking at it again, I do wonder if the defense boost is even necessary. That's perhaps the strongest effect being juggled here, turning him into a pseudo-Raelin when the chips are down and generally being fantastic value for 100 points. Focusing just on the attack + movement bonus a la Ranjit Singh would probably ease a lot of headaches and potential exploits of the power, and there is definitely an appeal to trimming some of the fat, so to speak.

The other main option for simplifying/dropping one of the boosts would probably be to just focus on +1A/+1D, though that feels a bit too much like a generic cheerleader for my tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape
2) I think the ability is a just a bit "too much" going on. it's close, but I think the fat can be trimmed:
- I don't like the "has a Range of 1" condition because there's only 1 unit that is Disciplined that has a ranged attack (Harquebus), and I wouldn't be too worried about that.
@Captain Stupendous and @Knight of Scape hit the unfortunate nail right on the head there. I'd love to give the Ashigaru or Roman Archers some love, but I'm not comfortable with boosting 10th Regiment of Foot primarily. I can't really think of a clean way to cut the redcoats out of the equation other than specifying a range of 1, unfortunately, which definitely leads to some more clutter on the power.

Quote:
- What is the theme or idea behind the opponent having more figures? That feels just a bit too "customy" especially because it get's really hairy and confusing when you're trying to determine figures you control versus figures in your army...and not many people recognize or understand the difference...but it is significant here.
The idea is to pay specific homage to the
Battle of Thermopylae Battle of Thermopylae
, where (exaggerated by legends) 300 Spartans led a valiant last stand against hundreds of thousands of Persians. They held out for two full days of battle, taking out over 20,000 soldiers. In truth, there was an army of several thousands of Greeks there, although they were reportedly disbanded by Leonidas on the last day to leave only the 300 Spartans and some others to defend their retreat.

So one of the main goals in properly representing Leonidas to me would be to evoke that feeling of a dramatic last stand, either by literally having fewer figures left on the board or through some other metric. I do agree that it is a little confusing currently--do you think that this comes across more clearly?
FOR GREATER GLORY
If every Army Card you control has a Disciplined personality and every opposing player controls has more figures on the battlefield than you control do, then every figure you control with a range of 1 that started this turn within 5 clear sight spaces of Leonidas becomes inspired. Inspired figures...
Quote:
- Playtesting would determine this, but I think he's going to test quite strong combined with the Legos and Honor Guard. Especially with the Legos, his passive buff plus MDG could make for some insane stat boosts for the Legos.
Agreed. I suspect that the Honor Guards are actually a really strong pairing--in my games with them, they could already put out a lot of damage with the auto-skull, so boosting their stats further is definitely something to carefully watch (and they're only a three figure squad instead of a 4-member one). Ditto for the Romans, who are already a very good army, even if they can't bond with everything under the sun while using Leonidas at the same time. And, as mentioned above, the Shaolin Monks could get nuts, too.
Quote:
3) I really like Spartan Fury, but like Leaf, 5 life just feels better for the Spartan Hero...but I'm not married to that, I think 4 could probably be fine...especially with the 5 def. That said, he doesn't feel like a 3 Att hero either. I'd probably prefer a 4At/4Def 5 Life here. I feel like that makes more sense for this epic Spartan hero.
- maybe to keep it from being OP you say "if at least 2 wounds are on Leonides he may attack one additional time". Then the theme is still that wounding him enrages him, then his attacks aren't becoming too insane for every wound AND you could even increase his attack because he's an epic hero. Honestly with that wording I'd definitely put him at 4 or 5 attack. 2 big attacks of 4 or 5 with this heroic spartan seems way more intimidating and furious then a bunch of little attacks of 3. Just my opinon.
Hmm. 5 life with 4+ attack definitely feels too good for this point bracket to me (ideally, I'd like for him to be closer to Marcus than Arashara in cost--the Sacred Band really suffer from only having two decent bonding options IMO, and I'd like for Leonidas + Marcus or Leonidas + Arashara builds to be possible with 3-4 squads). 3 attack does feel a little low, admittedly, though I feel like it might be a necessity as long as he's a Warlord with multiple attacks.

I do like your variant of double attack, though I must admit that I prefer the simple appeal of a power like "+1 attack per wound." If the sculpts ever appear, then I really like the idea of a Unique Spartan Squad with a variant of Spartan Fury that gets +1 attack per destroyed figure. And I also like how with height, a glyph, or some good ole' Taelord and Spirits, Leonidas can become absolutely terrifying in the right scenario (it reminds me of doing similar silly things with Zetacron back in the day ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight of Scape View Post
I agree that the "have fewer figures than all opponents" condition feels kind of finicky. Since it's checked every turn, and therefore can keep switching on and off, having to constantly keep track of exactly how many figures everyone has seems like it could get annoying. Intentionally trying to avoid killing enemies so that you can keep being outnumbered also feels a bit weird theme-wise.

I'd probably prefer something like having the power be active if at least half of the figures in your army have been destroyed. That way, you only have to count your own figures, and once the power starts activating it keeps activating and you don't have to constantly recount how many figures everyone has (barring Sturla shenanigans or something).
You have a very good point about the need to count several times being finicky (also, I feel like it's not entirely clear if the bonus can be switched on/off in the middle of a turn, too, but only applied to figures that start the turn within 5 spaces of Leonidas).

A previous version of the power actually was focused only on when half of your own figures were destroyed (or when half of a squad is destroyed), rather than being outnumbered in the battle. It's appealing for only needing to be checked once, but this gets much stronger with Romans or any spammable force, especially if playing beyond 500 points. That was before the range limit got added, though, so perhaps it's more feasible than I remember?

Another alternative could be to shift the count to some lesser frequency, such as once per round. That is perhaps going to result in more counting, though, since players are less likely to keep a running total of their figures, and it would almost certainly lead to some thematic fails like Leonidas stabbing a Greek on OM3 so that you get the bonus for the next round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAverageFan View Post
The outnumbered clause is definitely shooting for Theme (it being Leonidas after all). Perhaps it should only be done once at the beginning of the game, though that'd make him near-exclusively a counterdraft (or highly risky blind pick) and would probably require a big price hike.

~TAF, who never minds customy powers on customs because they're customs
Yeah, I don't feel like only checking at the start of the game is the answer here, as much as I love the Einar Imperium. It's perhaps more thematic to the actual story of Leonidas, but like you said, it'd really polarize him into either a constant pain or a waste of points.
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  #345  
Old November 12th, 2020, 02:39 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

I really like Leo. I also really wish he was a little more expensive, since +1A aura is a really really strong bonus.

Counting figures (or keeping a running total) does sound like a pain, especially in larger points games. Not sure the best way to handle that without completely polarizing him, though.

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  #346  
Old November 13th, 2020, 03:28 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
I really like Leo. I also really wish he was a little more expensive, since +1A aura is a really really strong bonus.

Counting figures (or keeping a running total) does sound like a pain, especially in larger points games. Not sure the best way to handle that without completely polarizing him, though.
He's definitely a bit dangerous at 100 points, but I'm hoping that the figure count limitations (or something similar) can make him reasonable. It would be fun to have another 200 point bonder, but the Sacred Band could really use another option more along the lines of Marcus.
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  #347  
Old November 15th, 2020, 04:49 AM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/8/20: Leonidas]

Being a fan of everything roman, spartan, and greek including the mythology I like old leo as a character choice. To echo what others have said, some of the ability powers are a bit finicky. Sometimes less is more. To simplify being outnumbered you could go a simpler route that could still hold theme. You could say: If there are more opponents figures than friendly figures within 10 spaces of Leonidas, 'X' figures get an inspiration bonus. I would include Leonidas in this buff as he led his small group. Those are my pennies. Take them for what they are. I love the mini you have there. Ill have to find one similar to 3d print.
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  #348  
Old November 27th, 2020, 04:43 PM
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Re: Astro's Custom Units [Update 11/27/20: Leonidas + Kirin]

In the true spirit of Black Friday, I've got a couple of updates to some existing units here. Leonidas has undergone some streamlining to try and hone in the design further, and the Kirin has seen some heavy updates to flesh out the Yokai faction with their own dragon-level unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Being a fan of everything roman, spartan, and greek including the mythology I like old leo as a character choice. To echo what others have said, some of the ability powers are a bit finicky. Sometimes less is more. To simplify being outnumbered you could go a simpler route that could still hold theme. You could say: If there are more opponents figures than friendly figures within 10 spaces of Leonidas, 'X' figures get an inspiration bonus. I would include Leonidas in this buff as he led his small group. Those are my pennies. Take them for what they are. I love the mini you have there. Ill have to find one similar to 3d print.
Thanks for the feedback! I did consider your version of the aura for For Greater Glory, but I thought this would probably result in even more counting since the number of figures within X spaces of Leonidas will change a lot more than the total number of figures on the board.

Ultimately, I felt like this rework was probably the simplest. I have some serious reservations about it in terms of gameplay, but I figure that it's best to start simple in playtesting and see if additional complexity is required to fix the power. This does lose out on the synergy with Einar Imperium and Samurai, but the first priority for Leonidas was the Greeks anyway:


The changes are entirely to For Greater Glory here. The movement bonus was dropped to drastically simplify the wording and reduce the power level a little bit, but now there is a static cutoff for the power once half of the player's units have been destroyed. I'm a little concerned about this still for being much more abusable with Romans, but I've generally been quite hesitant about theoretically strong powers that turn out to be workable in practice like with Masha Shingai or M.A.R.S., so I'm willing to at least test it.

I wasn't comfortable with a stat bump yet, though, especially given my reservations about Romans and the more abusable For Greater Glory. 5L/5D would be fun, but I want to be careful to keep him at an affordable price for the Sacred Band. Ditto for letting him boost himself, which is thematic but also much more concerning with Spartan Fury and bonding.

Then, we have the new and improved Kirin:


This version is a powered up, more expensive character that offers terrifying offense on top of its double-edged defense. The Yokai faction in general are heavily reliant on Ibaraki-doji right now--Nure Onna is map-dependent and squishy enough that once Ibaraki falls, the faction is in serious trouble. The Kirin's divine punishment is another strong offensive tool (much more helpful against squad figures, which the faction struggles against due to its dearth of multi-attacks), which really helps the Yokai get more build diversity and function without Ibaraki.

Peace Amidst War Peaceful Protector got a range limit tacked on to make it stronger for the Yokai themselves. With Abe no Seimei's Night of the Yokai, the Yokai can much more easily take advantage of the extra defense, and the revealed Order Marker requirement is a tried-and-true method to keep the Kirin from becoming overpowered in other builds. Overall, this really hones in the Kirin as an anti-squad machine, helping the Yokai both defensively and offensively take out their most difficult opponents. This design is basically the dragon of the Yokai faction now, with some very unique ways of playing off of the other designs.

Finally, Flying was swapped out for Levitation. This is partially to conserve space on the card with the wordy Peaceful Protector and Kirin's Judgment Special Attack, but it also has a really fun lore basis in that the Kirin refuses to tread on any living thing, even a single blade of grass. Ibaraki already offers the faction Flying, too, so having Levitation is another fun power to play around with in terms of positioning, especially on lava.
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