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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #109  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:15 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

Believe me, not even I think 15 is okay right now. 25 would be ideal for me, I'd be happy with 30, and 35 is good at a stretch. 40, I'd never draft it, but if we're happy at 30 or 35, then let's pick the one we're happiest with and run with it. As I said, I'd go 30, but I won't push if people feel more comfortable at 35.


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  #110  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:28 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

I have no problem with you keeping this open while starting something new L_O.

I really think you should not try to force this one.
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  #111  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

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I have no problem with you keeping this open while starting something new L_O.

I really think you should not try to force this one.
Thanks - I appreciate that, but it looks like we're finally starting to get somewhere!


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  #112  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:35 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

OK. As long as you are happy.

Do not settle here. I do not want you to have any regrets with this.
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  #113  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:45 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Danger Room Playtesting

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I mean, it's fairly pointless to fixate on what the actual result of the roll was. In a normal test of a figure one roll can swing things a lot but you usually have a bunch of rolls involving the figure; here it's literally a single attack that we're looking at. It's just too random and noisy of a data point to really matter. What matters is what the situation was when the spell was deployed - we can infer expected value from that.

In those two cases, it was used to block an attack of 5 (I'm assuming no height for Luke) and an attack of 4 or 5 (depending on height). So it was worth about 20 points before we consider board position and OM security (both of which enhance the value). Neither unit had any special power that makes it more relevant.

The obvious things to test against if you want to see the potential of the spell:
- Magical Defense figures
- Master Motivators and other "if you inflict a wound you get to do X" figures
- Double Skull figures, I guess

On the flip side, you could put a MD figure on a team against an opposing team that has one good special attacker or special wounder. See how easy it is to try to kill the MD figure without ever using a normal attack. Of course this becomes highly dependent on tactics and "tester bias" can become an issue (in either direction).

I'm still of the opinion that anything below 25 basically means "if you're playing an expensive MD figure and you don't include this spell, you're probably not playing the strongest build you could".
You state that the spell blocked Luke Cage's attack of 5, and Iron Mans' attack of 4 (or 5) except it clearly states in the report that both attacks were not blocked and a wound was still inflicted by both attacks.
I said "the spell was used to block", not that it was successful. Admittedly, this was misleading wording - I'll try to be more clear in the future - but I thought it was understandable in context.

Anyway, the expected value of such an attempt is around 20 (more for Selene, less for Raven). Obviously the value it delivers is zero when you take the wound anyway, and well over 20 when you take no wounds, but it's the expectation that we care about.
Okay, here's a post from dok saying that the expected value of an attempt is 20, and that anything below 25 could make it an auto include. Considering that that's dok's opinion, and he doesn't seem to have an issue with 25 or higher, it sounds like bringing this through at 30 would be acceptable, and I would strongly push to move if forward at that point cost. That gives little bit of room to consider that there are a handful of powers against which it's significantly more powerful (Fists of Fury, Master Motivator, Magical Defence), but it should also be remembered that there are significantly more powers it's useless against (any Special Attack or Auto-wounder).


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  #114  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:49 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

Pre-Yea at 30
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  #115  
Old May 21st, 2017, 02:50 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - Vote for Final Editing

We're not voting yet, but I think I'll give it about a day's grace before opening a vote at 30 - I'd be happy to take that as a Pre-Yea, though.

~Lazy Orang, remembering that she actually needs to change the thread name if we aren't voting.


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  #116  
Old May 21st, 2017, 05:15 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - We Might be Making Progress

That's a fair characterization of my first order analysis, although I was talking about a specific figure so it was a bit of an undershot of the worst case.

I'm just running straight points per wound. The math isn't that tricky. The most expensive MD figure is 74 points per wound (Enchantress). If we assume a non-MD figure attacking, the maximum reduction in wound chance is 41% (reducing an attack of 5 to an attack of 2). Crank the numbers out there and you find you get just a hair over 30 points of value by turning an attack against Enchantress from 5v5 to 2v5.

Granted, that's the most expensive MD figure (per wound), and of course you can't guarantee the a 5 attack coming along to slap Mesmerize on (some enemies will be able to just SA or autowound you to death, for that matter). But on the flip side, that doesn't consider staying alive long enough to use the last OM, or preventing Master Motivators from taking extra turns, or other stuff like that. So it can fluctuate around that.

Last edited by dok; May 21st, 2017 at 06:15 PM.
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  #117  
Old May 21st, 2017, 06:25 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - We Might be Making Progress

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That's a fair characterization of my first order analysis, although I was talking about a specific figure so it was a bit of an undershot of the worst case.

I'm just running straight points per wound. The math isn't that tricky. The most expensive MD figure is 74 points per wound (Enchantress). If we assume a non-MD figure attacking, the maximum reduction in wound chance is 41% (reducing an attack of 5 to an attack of 2). Crank the numbers out there and you find you get just a hair over 30 points of value by turning an attack against Enchantress from 5v5 to 2v5.

Granted, that's the most expensive MD figure (per wound), and of course you can't guarantee the a 5 attack coming along to slap Mesmerize on (some enemies will be able to just SA or autowound you to death, for that matter). But on the flip side, that doesn't consider staying alive long enough to use the last OM, or preventing Master Motivators from taking extra turns, or other stuff like that. So it can fluctuate around that.
So what you're saying is that, with the most expensive MD figure defending against an attack with the strength that is most likely to make Mesmerise useful against it the spell is worth 30 points, and there are a number of other factors, positive and negative, that taken on their own would, in some cases, drag its cost up but, in other cases, drag it down, correct? If so, 30's looking good to me.


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  #118  
Old May 21st, 2017, 06:28 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - We Might be Making Progress

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That's a fair characterization of my first order analysis, although I was talking about a specific figure so it was a bit of an undershot of the worst case.

I'm just running straight points per wound. The math isn't that tricky. The most expensive MD figure is 74 points per wound (Enchantress). If we assume a non-MD figure attacking, the maximum reduction in wound chance is 41% (reducing an attack of 5 to an attack of 2). Crank the numbers out there and you find you get just a hair over 30 points of value by turning an attack against Enchantress from 5v5 to 2v5.

Granted, that's the most expensive MD figure (per wound), and of course you can't guarantee the a 5 attack coming along to slap Mesmerize on (some enemies will be able to just SA or autowound you to death, for that matter). But on the flip side, that doesn't consider staying alive long enough to use the last OM, or preventing Master Motivators from taking extra turns, or other stuff like that. So it can fluctuate around that.
So what you're saying is that, with the most expensive MD figure defending against an attack with the strength that is most likely to make Mesmerise useful against it the spell is worth 30 points, and there are a number of other factors, positive and negative, that taken on their own would, in some cases, drag its cost up but, in other cases, drag it down, correct? If so, 30's looking good to me.
Yep. 30 looks reasonable to me. It's going to be worth more sometimes, but unless you know what your opponent has before you draft the spell, you can't count on it, even with a max-value figure like Enchantress.
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  #119  
Old May 21st, 2017, 06:31 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - We Might be Making Progress

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That's a fair characterization of my first order analysis, although I was talking about a specific figure so it was a bit of an undershot of the worst case.

I'm just running straight points per wound. The math isn't that tricky. The most expensive MD figure is 74 points per wound (Enchantress). If we assume a non-MD figure attacking, the maximum reduction in wound chance is 41% (reducing an attack of 5 to an attack of 2). Crank the numbers out there and you find you get just a hair over 30 points of value by turning an attack against Enchantress from 5v5 to 2v5.

Granted, that's the most expensive MD figure (per wound), and of course you can't guarantee the a 5 attack coming along to slap Mesmerize on (some enemies will be able to just SA or autowound you to death, for that matter). But on the flip side, that doesn't consider staying alive long enough to use the last OM, or preventing Master Motivators from taking extra turns, or other stuff like that. So it can fluctuate around that.
So what you're saying is that, with the most expensive MD figure defending against an attack with the strength that is most likely to make Mesmerise useful against it the spell is worth 30 points, and there are a number of other factors, positive and negative, that taken on their own would, in some cases, drag its cost up but, in other cases, drag it down, correct? If so, 30's looking good to me.
Yep. 30 looks reasonable to me. It's going to be worth more sometimes, but unless you know what your opponent has before you draft the spell, you can't count on it, even with a max-value figure like Enchantress.
And, on the flip side, there will be times, like when your opponent is targeting you only with SAs and auto-wounds, or a big attack that Mesmerise fails to block, or a moderate attack you still just get unlucky against, where it will be worth a lot less.
It appears we have come to an agreement, good sir!


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  #120  
Old May 21st, 2017, 06:39 PM
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Re: The Spellbook of Mesmerize - We Might be Making Progress

Well, "a big attack that Mesmerise fails to block, or a moderate attack you still just get unlucky against" is built into those estimates. But yes, the SA/Auto-Wound scenario does work around Mesmerize.

(The one advantage Mesmerize has over Weapon of Destiny, when it comes to pricing, is that you can't build your opponent's army. WoD could be counted on to more reliably deliver high end value because you chose who used it. Both are scary as heck but Mesmerize at least can be priced closer to averages than exceptions.)
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