Welcome to the ARV!

[Flash_19]

Originally Posted by Xotli

Hmmm ... well, it's not only not BoV legal, but also not Heroscape legal.

I mean, it's your group and you can do what you like, but I would be a bit leery about allowing terrain features specifically disallowed by the rules. Other examples of this would be allowing stacking of half-height tiles and allowing jungle pieces that are connected to only one other terrain piece.

I think it's also hard for VirtualScape to make this clear. It certainly wasn't clear to me when I was perusing the build instructions. So, you know ... just some food for thought.

I can't speak for the ARV, but as a map designer, I've asked myself, what purpose does this rule serve regarding the two issues you've brought up - the jungle pieces, and the wall sections.

The jungle pieces have a very practical reason for needing to be attached to two hexes. If not, they tip over and move when you try to place figures next to them.

The castle walls don't seem to be as apparent. I'm guessing the designers wanted to avoid the issue you brought up in your earlier post and decided to go with the rule they best thought would accomplish it. Meaning, they wanted to try and avoid situations where a figure might be up on a wall, but unable to engage another figure up on the wall because of a missing wall walk tile. That would obviously give ranged flying figures a huge advantage, because they could perch there and shoot away all day long.

In other words, I think the designers were trying to incorporate a rule that they felt would limit opportunities to create game breaking situations inflicted by the terrain. Maybe someone else has found a better reason for that rule that I haven't thought of, but that's the conclusion I've come to.

So, really, I would argue it comes down to the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law. I will say that from my perspective, using uncapped pillars increases the ability to create fun, balanced maps - so I'm really glad the ARV allows it.

[Sir Heroscape]

Not sure how I missed this discussion... oops

As for the uncapped pillars, yes we went into this knowing that they were "technically" against the rulebook...but we also agreed with - as Flash_19 already mentioned - the "spirit of the law" and wanted to broaden the doors of creativity when it came to map building. We felt there was a lot of potential to be had in building competitive maps that way, otherwise you'd basically be removing Castle pillars entirely as a playable terrain piece. If that doesn't fly with you and your group, I can't say there's much to be done about it other than to make sure to check out the other maps we've got posted as there are still other really great maps.

In regards to the uploading of links and images @Xotli ....I agree. I've been meaning to do that and have kept forgetting to make that a priority. I have the means, I'll just need to take that project upon myself to locally host all those downloads here on the site.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by Flash_19

I can't speak for the ARV, but as a map designer, I've asked myself, what purpose does this rule serve regarding the two issues you've brought up – the jungle pieces, and the wall sections.

The jungle pieces have a very practical reason for needing to be attached to two hexes. If not, they tip over and move when you try to place figures next to them.

The castle walls don't seem to be as apparent. I'm guessing the designers wanted ...

In other words, I think the designers were trying ...

Hey, as a former member of the C3V, I have been involved in many discussions about what the designers wanted, and what they were trying to do. And, in the end, it always just comes down to whatever we wish were true ... I say that it's MORONIC that you can give a PLAGUE to a DOOR, so of course I argue that the designers never intended that particular interaction. And, if you come to my house for a game, you absolutely will not be giving the plague to MY castle door. But, if we're in a tournament, then I have to let you do it. Because those are the rules. Maybe I'm right and the designers never wanted that to work, never meant for it to work, and in fact are constantly lying awake at nights kicking themselves over allowing it to work, but the rules are clear, and the designers had plenty of opportunity to change them if they'd really really wanted to. They didn't. So we're stuck with it.

I'm sure I don't need to belabor the parallels to the uncapped castle wall situation.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

... otherwise you'd basically be removing Castle pillars entirely as a playable terrain piece.

Well, I wouldn't look at it that way. You're not removing anything. The designers did that when they made the rules. LIS above: they didn't have to make the rules that way. But they did. So there you are. Anyhow, there's all sorts of reasons why castle sets don't get much play in tourney maps: the walls are too tall, the doors are a giant PITA, etc. Again, that's not really a thing you or I or anyone is doing: that's just the way tourney maps work. Personally, I think tourney maps are boring and wish we didn't have to use them. But, if you're specifically doing a tourney ... well, you don't have but so many options.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

If that doesn't fly with you and your group, I can't say there's much to be done about it other than to make sure to check out the other maps we've got posted as there are still other really great maps.

Oh, absolutely. We used 2 last year, and we'll use another 2 this year.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

In regards to the uploading of links and images @Xotli ....I agree. I've been meaning to do that and have kept forgetting to make that a priority. I have the means, I'll just need to take that project upon myself to locally host all those downloads here on the site.

[Dad_Scaper]

Uncapped pillars are a valuable resource in map design, imho. But that’s just mho.

Just as people are free to play without C3V units, they are free to insist upon capped pillars. Their house, their rules. Especially in a tournament setting, I would want the resource of uncapped pillars, though.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Xotli

Well, I wouldn't look at it that way. You're not removing anything. The designers did that when they made the rules. LIS above: they didn't have to make the rules that way. But they did. So there you are. Anyhow, there's all sorts of reasons why castle sets don't get much play in tourney maps: the walls are too tall, the doors are a giant PITA, etc. Again, that's not really a thing you or I or anyone is doing: that's just the way tourney maps work. Personally, I think tourney maps are boring and wish we didn't have to use them. But, if you're specifically doing a tourney ... well, you don't have but so many options.

FWIW, GenCon map pool has used uncapped pillars since at least 4 years ago, iirc (Vestige and Remains of Clionesia jump to mind). If it's good enough for MM, it's good enough for me. Uncapped pillars make excellent LOS blockers in tourney maps, and saying that castle sets don't see much use in tourney play isn't exactly true.

[vegietarian18]

The uncapped castle sets doesn't bother me at all.

There's actually another "rule" in the castle rulebook that makes Broken Skyline and a few other BoV Maps "tournament illegal" with the same logic in mind as uncapped castle ban. You aren't allowed to have castle pillars hanging off the map (not placed on another hex) and Broken Skyline has castle pillars with no hex beneath them.

I think for a castle set that so obviously doesn't fit the tournament style of mapmaking it's okay to modify the rules within reason to make it usable

[Typhon2222]

Just popping in more often these days after several years away... and wanted to say how glad I am to see something like this ARV, not only active, but apparently flourishing. More power to you fine folks! Let's hear it for 'Scape cartography!


(P.S. I love me some uncapped pillars. That's why our WoS, in its relatively brief span, allowed them. And why Remains of Clionesia was the first map we inducted.)

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

Just popping in more often these days after several years away... and wanted to say how glad I am to see something like this ARV, not only active, but apparently flourishing. More power to you fine folks! Let's hear it for 'Scape cartography!


(P.S. I love me some uncapped pillars. That's why our WoS, in its relatively brief span, allowed them. And why Remains of Clionesia was the first map we inducted.)

Welcome back! Looking forward to what you have up your sleeve for our next contest

[Typhon2222]

When IS the next contest?!

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

When IS the next contest?!

Should be around February. Going forward I think our plan is to do 2 a year, so we can make sure we have enough time to playtest.

[superfrog]

Hey ARVers!

Question for you: Would you guys allow castle pillars that sat on the table as opposed to on another tile?

Technically, it's against the rulebook, but I think it's worth considering (in the spirit of uncapped pillars).

EDIT: Looks like there's BoV maps that do this as well, as vegie pointed out.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Hey ARVers!

Question for you: Would you guys allow castle pillars that sat on the table as opposed to on another tile?

Technically, it's against the rulebook, but I think it's worth considering (in the spirit of uncapped pillars).

EDIT: Looks like there's BoV maps that do this as well, as vegie pointed out.

I don't know how the others (@TREX @Robber @Nomad @BiggaBullfrog ) feel, but I actually didn't realize it was against the rulebook, and now I'd have to go check and see if we have a map that already does this. Part of me thinks that one of our maps already does this. But overall, no, I don't see a problem with it. That said, I will say that it can be SUPER annoying for transporting maps when you try and move a map onto a piece of cardboard and then the pillars fall through the "hex hole"