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  #13  
Old November 20th, 2018, 12:22 AM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

Thanks for the replies and encouragement everyone.

Due to the positive feedback, both public and private, I went ahead and posted the next installment since I already had it written. I will try to contain my compulsive posting urges from here on out.

The newest post: Comment In Other Customs Creators' Threads
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  #14  
Old November 20th, 2018, 12:34 AM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

I definately can agree with the “give feedback in spurts” bit. But hey, it’s hard to get to em all with life always getting in the way. Just do your bedt to give feedback, I say.

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  #15  
Old November 20th, 2018, 08:59 AM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

I absolutely agree that having a 'feel' for the game and having played it for a while is absolutely crucial in being able to create for it.

However, I have to disagree with your last point in that post - I don't think it's necessary to slavishly follow official wording conventions. For example, as someone with experience in both designing and playing the game, I do use 'roll the D20' in my powers, not out of lack of experience, but because it is equally clear (at least to everyone I play with - what 'the D20' is is fairly obvious) and is more concise than 'the twenty-sided die' - it's quicker to say, takes up less space and reduces word count at no cost of clarity. Equally, I'd say the same about constructions such as 'if you roll a 17+' over 'if you roll a 17 or higher', 'Valiant figure' over 'figure with a Valiant personality' etc..

Not only that, but official wording was notoriously inconsistent in how it said specific things, often doing it one way on one card and another on a different card, and they themselves refined their wording over time. If you look back at Water Clone now without context you'd swear it was a power from a custom, not an official card, and Johnny 'Shotgun' Sullivan's 'only needs a clear sight shot' became confusing when they finally defined what clear sight is, as a discussion in The Varja's book showed.

C3G has taken on a more specific, regimented style, but even then, I don't feel differing from official (or 'official', in the case of C3G precedent) wording necessarily indicates a lack of experience if done mindfully - at times it can, particularly when the power seems to be written in a way that shows no similarities to the usual structure, but making conscious changes for the sake of clarity, brevity or a particular goal I feel shows the opposite. I'm particularly thinking of the changes to wording @NecroBlade set out that he'd be using in his latest customs thread - while I have no plans to use his units as yet, and don't plan to incorporate all his wording changes, it's hard to argue with his logic on any of them, or say that they weren't thought out decisions made based on experience.


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  #16  
Old November 20th, 2018, 09:41 AM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I absolutely agree that having a 'feel' for the game and having played it for a while is absolutely crucial in being able to create for it.

However, I have to disagree with your last point in that post - I don't think it's necessary to slavishly follow official wording conventions. For example, as someone with experience in both designing and playing the game, I do use 'roll the D20' in my powers, not out of lack of experience, but because it is equally clear (at least to everyone I play with - what 'the D20' is is fairly obvious) and is more concise than 'the twenty-sided die' - it's quicker to say, takes up less space and reduces word count at no cost of clarity. Equally, I'd say the same about constructions such as 'if you roll a 17+' over 'if you roll a 17 or higher', 'Valiant figure' over 'figure with a Valiant personality' etc..

Not only that, but official wording was notoriously inconsistent in how it said specific things, often doing it one way on one card and another on a different card, and they themselves refined their wording over time. If you look back at Water Clone now without context you'd swear it was a power from a custom, not an official card, and Johnny 'Shotgun' Sullivan's 'only needs a clear sight shot' became confusing when they finally defined what clear sight is, as a discussion in The Varja's book showed.

C3G has taken on a more specific, regimented style, but even then, I don't feel differing from official (or 'official', in the case of C3G precedent) wording necessarily indicates a lack of experience if done mindfully - at times it can, particularly when the power seems to be written in a way that shows no similarities to the usual structure, but making conscious changes for the sake of clarity, brevity or a particular goal I feel shows the opposite. I'm particularly thinking of the changes to wording @NecroBlade set out that he'd be using in his latest customs thread - while I have no plans to use his units as yet, and don't plan to incorporate all his wording changes, it's hard to argue with his logic on any of them, or say that they weren't thought out decisions made based on experience.
I absolutely don't disagree with you on any of those points. They are all good and valid points.

If you look at some of those customs creators of old (who have the Master Customs Creators Titles even) and were intimately connected with the game, they also used terms like d20 on their cards. Also, you will notice that I did acknowledge that problems still arose sometimes with official units and the way their abilities were worded. So, I am not advocating that clinging to official wording precludes or solves every conceivable problem.

I purposely painted with a broad brush. Since the point of the thread is to possibly give newer customs creators a head start, pointing them in the direction of doing things as close to the official cards as possible seems the wisest course. As you mentioned Necroblade (who I worked with in C3V and respect), he is a veteran player who has years of experience designing and an established reputation in the HS community. As a result, he will be given some leeway because we all know he isn't simply making rash judgmental errors in his wording. Because of his history in the community we know his changes are born from a familiarity with the game rather unfamiliarity. That same understanding may not be given to someone without the same history in the community.

For someone who has not established a reputation in the community and is not as experienced in wording abilities, straying too far from the official wording can be detrimental to becoming established as a quality customs creator. One it may cause issues with clarity since they are reinventing the wheel as far as language goes. But also, rather than being viewed as being concise, their cards may be viewed as being "customy" or "lazy" since they have no history yet of quality customs.

So, again, I do not necessarily disagree with you, but the advice is meant for those breaking into customs or who haven't been in customs long enough to establish a reputation, rather than veteran creators.

Thank you so much for your input! I think it was very beneficial for identifying the focus of the thread and giving a balanced approach to things.
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  #17  
Old November 20th, 2018, 06:45 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Equally, I'd say the same about constructions such as 'if you roll a 17+' over 'if you roll a 17 or higher', 'Valiant figure' over 'figure with a Valiant personality' etc..
Well dang, now you're making me think I didn't go far enough in some cases...

Quote:
I'm particularly thinking of the changes to wording @NecroBlade set out that he'd be using in his latest customs thread - while I have no plans to use his units as yet, and don't plan to incorporate all his wording changes, it's hard to argue with his logic on any of them, or say that they weren't thought out decisions made based on experience.
Thanks for the shoutout. It probably started with the d20, but the more I created, the more I got tired of using the same words or phrases that just felt redundant. I'm really just aiming for "what's the simplest way I can say this and still make sense". Sometimes the extra words actually add confusion instead of clarity. This was by no means figured out all at once, either. No telling how many passes I did and updated wording each time. And I still find wording I'm not happy with and think I could improve upon. This kind of iteration is essential to all aspects of a design.

As to this thread, I'd reinforce the idea of playtesting your units. As I noted in my thread that @Lazy Orang linked, I start with a formula, and I trust that formula to be pretty close most of the time. But if I'm serious about making a unit fit for public consumption, there has to be a lot more math, testing, and tweaking to find the sweet spot.

The official units vary in power level, but the variety of strengths, weaknesses, playstyles, and powers mean there is something that bears some kind of similarity to your unit. Absolutely use that as a comparison point; make your unit compare favorably (as in balanced) to a similar official unit and you'll be well on your way.


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  #18  
Old November 20th, 2018, 09:07 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

I think the subtext of LC's OP here is that he's speaking to those who wish to share their customs with the world, for the purpose of others using those customs.

I'm a big fan of LO's designs, and of NB's designs, but they both (I think) might agree that if what you're looking for is acceptance into the canon, and others using your units commingled with the "official" ones, then some standardization of lingo is probably a good thing.

I don't think there are any real disagreements here.

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  #19  
Old November 20th, 2018, 09:23 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I think the subtext of LC's OP here is that he's speaking to those who wish to share their customs with the world, for the purpose of others using those customs.

I'm a big fan of LO's designs, and of NB's designs, but they both (I think) might agree that if what you're looking for is acceptance into the canon, and others using your units commingled with the "official" ones, then some standardization of lingo is probably a good thing.

I don't think there are any real disagreements here.
Agreed; my response to the wording alteration was just that, not meant to be a comment on the general purpose of this thread. There are a couple places where the official wording can be cleaned up ("enemy figure" and "opponent's figure" both being used and meaning the same thing, for example), but should be adhered to whenever possible if "canon acceptance" (generally, most units you want other people to actually play) is your goal. For better or worse, the designers intended to spell things out as much as possible within the textual confines of the cards. By maintaining their standards, such as they were, you help keep a consistency to the canon that you're trying to fit in with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamaclown View Post
For someone who has not established a reputation in the community and is not as experienced in wording abilities, straying too far from the official wording ... may cause issues with clarity since they are reinventing the wheel as far as language goes.
This is exactly why I would argue for steering more toward official wording than away from it. I've seen many, many customs over the years that come across as sloppy because their meaning is lost in unconventional language. My SuperHeroScape project, while I maintain that it would mix just fine with official 'scape, is a bit experimental in that way. It is meant foremost as a personal canon, but even though I play with language, I try to keep it recognizable as Heroscape.

And I appreciate the kind words, @Lamaclown and @Dad_Scaper . You're likewise respected and appreciated in my eyes (as is pretty much everyone in this thread who has been around for a minute).


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  #20  
Old November 21st, 2018, 02:03 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

I was doing some research for the next post when I came across a far far superior article by @Scytale which hit on feedback giving and receiving. Please check it out. I don't think it received the recognition it so richly deserves. Great job, Scytale!

I also posted an edit in the OP with the link to Scytale's article.
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  #21  
Old November 21st, 2018, 02:04 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

Scytale's series on customs for the Codex is very good. I only found it a few weeks ago, but I appreciated each article immensely. The one you linked was the first thing I thought of after reading your post along the same lines.
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  #22  
Old November 21st, 2018, 02:07 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

After reading Scytale's article my quaint little post is quite superfluous. He did an excellent job! I look forward to reading the rest of them.

The Codex from back in the day was an incredible resource. I am so glad to see it being revived! (it is also nice to see my HS font being put to use )
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  #23  
Old November 21st, 2018, 02:31 PM
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But it may be off putting to say it three times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamaclown View Post
After reading Scytale's article my quaint little post is quite superfluous. He did an excellent job! I look forward to reading the rest of them.

The Codex from back in the day was an incredible resource. I am so glad to see it being revived! (it is also nice to see my HS font being put to use )
It never hurts to say something twice.

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Scy’s articles are fantastic. If you haven’t read them (you being the general reader, not just Lama), you should read em all!

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  #24  
Old November 21st, 2018, 03:08 PM
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Re: An Impactful Customs Creator

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Originally Posted by Lamaclown View Post
After reading Scytale's article my quaint little post is quite superfluous. He did an excellent job! I look forward to reading the rest of them.
Hardly superfluous! While there is a lot of overlap in our articles (as there should be!), you touched on or expanded on points in your altogether excellent article that I did not . Besides, on topics like these it's definitely better to read different viewpoints from different creators, especially from the old guard like us that have been-there-done-that.

Your initial article is likewise excellent. It seems like "play the game!" would be obvious advice to a customs creator, but it's an all-too-often skipped step and great advice for new creators.
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