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  #25  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 10:21 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Messenger, can you speak in plain English please?
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  #26  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 10:31 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raudulfr Shieldcrusher View Post
Messenger, can you speak in plain English please?


I followed the first part, but by the "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" bit it sounded dangerously like you condoned the murder.
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  #27  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 10:36 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Do you really think that, ollie? I followed Messenger's post perfectly, but then I already know the doctrine. He was trying to agree that actions by a few can have enormous effects using the Biblical example of the fall and redemption of man to demonstrate. The forgiveness through the shedding of blood mentioned is a price already paid by Christ.

~Aldin, theologically

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  #28  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 10:42 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Do you really think that, ollie? I followed Messenger's post perfectly, but then I already know the doctrine. He was trying to agree that actions by a few can have enormous effects using the Biblical example of the fall and redemption of man to demonstrate. The forgiveness through the shedding of blood mentioned is a price already paid by Christ.

~Aldin, theologically
I was genuinely confused. If I wasn't working from the assumption that no-one thinks that this murder was OK, that's probably what I'd conclude from the use of that particular quotation when there is no other indication that the murder is condemned and it comes shortly after a comment that someone deserved to die for their sin.

The paragraph that begins "But God demonstrates..." is the one that really through me for a loop, for many of the reasons that Christian doctrine in general does.
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  #29  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 11:40 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

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Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
Quote:
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I don't think they were recruiters exactly but were there to give talks or something. Funny how a persona can be against abortion because it's murder and yet go out and commit murder. Weird.

9 men sitting in a court made a decision on abortion. A slightly larger group signed the Declaration of Independence. I'm sure a similar group decided that wasn't acceptable. Apparently in these disagreements, the better shooters always win? NO matter what, who or where they are meeting, these disagreements seem to always end in bloodshed. I read somewhere that most significant changes ever made in human history have been initiated and carried out by small numbers of people, and many more through guns and swords.
Not to mention the countless live lost to bad chorizo.


BL: I get the feeling you misread me.

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  #30  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 11:54 AM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumline3469 View Post
Not much happened after that until yesterday when he was shot and killed in the foyer of a church that he was ushering at.
I am very curious what denomination of church this was?

I am really surprised that any church would be OK with having Mr. Tiller on staff, even in a volunteer role, as most churches denounce abortion. Does anyone know of any churches that condone abortion?
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  #31  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

I believe it was Lutheran, but I am not certain.

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  #32  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

I'm pretty sure it was Lutheran.
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  #33  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:05 PM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Do you really think that, ollie? I followed Messenger's post perfectly, but then I already know the doctrine. He was trying to agree that actions by a few can have enormous effects using the Biblical example of the fall and redemption of man to demonstrate. The forgiveness through the shedding of blood mentioned is a price already paid by Christ.

~Aldin, theologically
I think my problem was it read like a sermon. I just want messenger to say what he means without all the 'bible speak'.
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  #34  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:07 PM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumline3469 View Post
Not much happened after that until yesterday when he was shot and killed in the foyer of a church that he was ushering at.
I am very curious what denomination of church this was?

I am really surprised that any church would be OK with having Mr. Tiller on staff, even in a volunteer role, as most churches denounce abortion. Does anyone know of any churches that condone abortion?
The church was the Reformation Lutheran Church of Wichita, a congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. From a wiki article, I found the following:

Quote:
Abortion
The issue of abortion has also been contentious within the ELCA. The church, in documents approved in 1991,[1] set out its position on the matter as follows. The ELCA describes itself as "a community supportive of life," and encourages women to explore alternatives to abortion such as adoption. However, the church states that there are certain circumstances under which a decision to end a pregnancy can be "morally responsible." These include cases where the pregnancy "presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman," situations where "the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse," and "circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant." Regardless of the reason, the ELCA opposes abortion when "a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology." THE ELCA opposes "laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions," and "laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion." The statement emphasizes the prevention of circumstances leading to abortion, specifically encouraging "appropriate forms of sex education in schools, community pregnancy prevention programs, and parenting preparation classes." The ELCA Board of Pensions, part of the ELCA corporate structure, covers elective abortions, including late-term and partial birth abortions.
They do not sound much different than other Christian denomination on the abortion issue.


My thoughts on this situation mirror what others have said. While I find abortion to be reprehensible, I find murder to be just as so. Murder to end murder is not a justification in my mind.
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  #35  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:08 PM
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Re: George Tiller's Murder

I believe it's also worth noting that Tiller had been shot before and his clinic had been attacked. I say this just to add what I consider to be a bit more depth to the story which is that he knew the dangers and obviously felt that he had an important role to play, since he continued.

He died doing something he believed was right. Not killing babies but rather supporting women's rights. I'm making assumptions, btw.

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  #36  
Old June 2nd, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumline3469 View Post
Not much happened after that until yesterday when he was shot and killed in the foyer of a church that he was ushering at.
I am very curious what denomination of church this was?

I am really surprised that any church would be OK with having Mr. Tiller on staff, even in a volunteer role, as most churches denounce abortion. Does anyone know of any churches that condone abortion?
I wonder what church his murderer attended....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp View Post
Not killing babies but rather supporting women's rights.
See now aren't those one and the same in Tiller's case?

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