Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[dok]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Dok, we're just fleshing out the class direction. Nobody said it is better or ideal. We're giving everything a chance, and having options for people to choose between, especially so we have a backup to work from if something isn't favored by the heroes.

This seems like a ton of effort going into something that is:

1. Hardly the most intuitive approach
2. Is extremely wordy (I would say kludgy)
3. Does not meet the parallel with the Avengers at all
4. Insofar as it differs from the Avengers, seems to fail the theme of the Justice League as it's been articulated several times

At this point we can see the basic shape of this. Isn't that enough to make clear the choice whether it's the road to go down, versus markers? You were upset when you thought all your work on the public design was cast aside - do we really want even more effort being put down this particular alley only to cast that aside?

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

As for bad guys with good guys, it's not the worst in the world, but Cap teaming best with Zemo still doesn't make me think we should make that the norm.

Sure, good with bad isn't great on theme. But it happens all the time in other synergy builds, and I don't think trying to make JL be the "every good guy class and personality" synergy web is a reasonable way to limit this.

To that specific example, as I said earlier, I think it's pretty reasonable to designate JL, Avenger, Masters of Evil, and Horsemen markers as "team markers", and say that a card can't have multiple team markers.

(FWIW, I don't think Cap teams best with Zemo. It's a reasonable option, and sure, both Zemo and Cap are good, but beyond that there's nothing special there. I'd rather play Cap with Ms Marvel, or Iron Patriot, or Robot, or Star-Lord, or Black Adam, than with Baron Zemo.)

[IAmBatman]

Marker talk aside, I think the important takeaway from dok's post is that the more elegant we can get with this, the better chance it stands. Which means moving away from a need to be all-inclusive. If a class is just going to bring in A+ figures who'll be better additions (like Protector, which brings in Red Tornado, but also Angel), I'd argue it's not a class worth including.

Adventurer brings in Plastic Man and Animal Man, but also Jocasta and Invisible Woman (who's not worth as much without Adventurers to help, but still could give +2 defense). Might not be worth including.

Champion is a must, as it grabs both Supermen, Wonder Woman, Booster Gold, and Flash (Wally). Most of the non-iconic Champions are Marvel or Indy Beat Sticks who at least are on even fighting ground with their DC breathren. No major A+/synergy giving figures spotted there.

Vigilante brings in the Gotham group, but also Punisher and Daredevil. Punisher is probably the strongest draft of the group and may end up a default Justice League member in most competitive builds, but it'd be tough to cut out Batman (unless he was the sole hub and started with the Class and we didn't include Vigilante? Black Canary's loss would be a huge blow, though, so probably best not to go there).

Warrior brings in Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Vixen, and Aquaman 2.0, which is a nice pull, and an argument against bothering with the class of King. It does allow the mini-synergy of the Warriors 3 to exist within a larger Justice League synergy, though.

Archer would bring in Green Arrow and Red Arrow, with Red Arrow being a poor draft due to not having available Archer/Sidekick synergy. Hawkeye 2.0 would also come in and be the best available draft and probably a default inclusion in competitive builds like Punisher.

Hmm ... I'll stop there because this is discouraging. It seems like this is a good path to make a really awesome Punisher/Hawkeye 2.0/Thor build, or a really awesome build around the Warriors 3 .... Maybe personalities is the more fruitful way to go? Triggers on personalities but still changes the Class? (C3G Captain America being Patriotic instead of Valiant would be a major coup for this direction!).

Edit: dok, please see the warning signs and avoid sending this back into a spiraling circle again. We are not currently arguing the merits of one direction versus another. We are doing due diligence for each direction, one-at-a-time, assembling final results, and then allowing time for each to sit and be considered and a debate to evolve from there. The last thing we want for the productivity of this thread is to launch into a debate of why one version absolutely won't work or one version absolutely is superior.

[Arkham]

@dok

Then how about less telling me how I'm doing things poorly, and be our perfect leader. Lead the conversation.

Because right now, you're just complaining about everything, and happy with nothing.

I offered a diplomatic solution, instead of everyone getting down each other's throats and talking in circles. Thus far, myself, Yoda, and Bats have been quite productive on at least approaching this direction and fleshing it out.

Johnny wants to see no stone left unturned. He wants ideas. He wants to make sure we cover all possibilities.

[laughing matter]

For the record, the current Justice League lineup has a reformed Captain Cold, and Lex Luthor. It makes sense to include "bad guys" solely on the ground that people can change, and I think everyone deserves a chance; even fictional people.

[Yodaking]

Those are valid points to make once we get to the point where we compare and contrast the different options. Your feelings on this matter are not the same as the veto wielding heroes, who we are trying to appease by offering up multiple options. Then we can try and convince them which option is the best course of action and why. The marker system may in fact end up being the option chosen when this is all said and done. That was what we put forth as what we thought was the best option and 3 of the 5 heroes vetoed it. Not all the heroes agree that the JLA should parallel the Avengers. Some of the heroes think the JLA is a golden god that deserves special reverence. Simply slapping down markers and saying it is the best way does not get us past a veto. We have to come up with a bunch of other 'good' options and then let them decide what they like best. So please help us create some other 'good' options that are different than the marker system we have already presented.

[dok]

Sock, you really need to stop taking everyone's posts in the most negative way possible. Assume that people mean well - around here they usually do. (I'm not even sure why you think this means I think you are doing a poor job.)

I think I've been very clear about what I think is a good idea and what I would be happy with. I've been unambiguous in my support of a marker system. After some early reservations about it, I came to embrace the idea that this should be the a parallel to the Avengers system, offering a different set of bonuses and synergies through a superficially similar mechanic. I thought what you did in public design wasn't perfect, but was a great start to that effort.

I don't think this system (the class/personality stuff) is some sort of grand compromise, and anyway, I still don't think (nor do I really have reason to think) that a marker system is DOA. At any rate, as I said (hey look, I had a point above that wasn't complaining!) at this point the idea has been fleshed out enough that I think it's fair to take a step back from the nitty gritty and compare it to a different approach, more broadly speaking.

[Arkham]

Thanks for your opinion. We know you prefer the marker system. I believe I've said several times I'm open to markers, and was clearly behind the idea. With that said, your only contributions to the approach to cover all grounds, flesh out each direction, and give everything a chance, has been reminding us that you think the markers are the best. It's been made clear that we will give those their attention and flesh out that direction in time.

I'll stop taking your posts negatively, when you cut the "cute" sarcastic comments. The kind of comments that only help instigate and escalate.

I believe I was told to have patience, so that's what we're doing.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

your only contributions to the approach to cover all grounds, flesh out each direction, and give everything a chance, has been reminding us that you think the markers are the best.

I made a multi-point explanation of issues I had, and underlined again why I think markers make sense. If I had just done what you said, that would have made for a very short post.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

It's been made clear that we will give those their attention and flesh out that direction in time.

You are oscillating between claiming ownership of this thread (policing other people's posts, somehow inferring that my criticism of the direction being explored currently in the thread means that I'm accusing you, personally of doing a bad job) and claiming that you don't have control and are forced into this by others.

I suggest you just be an advocate for the things you think are good ideas, and make concise arguments why you think other things are bad ideas. Address the ideas directly, don't get into silly debates, don't worry about the politics, don't worry about what this or that hero wants, and don't try to regulate the behavior of others.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I'll stop taking your posts negatively, when you cut the "cute" sarcastic comments. The kind of comments that only help instigate and escalate.

If you wait for me to stop being sarcastic you are going to have a long wait. Own your own behavior.

I've been respectful. I've addressed ideas, not people. I am certainly not trying to instigate anything. This isn't about me.

[IAmBatman]

Speaking of silly debates ....

Let's get back to discussion of class! Is personality a better way to choose who's eligible? I really worry about a system that encourages armies built around Punisher and Hawkeye 2.0.

[Flame Gryphon]

FWIW, I'm a fan of personality. I view the JL as being more of a group of icons to look up to than most any other group in comics. Making the synergy revolve around Heroic heroes would work pretty well imo.

[IAmBatman]

Well there's two ways to go with it: choose the heroes based on personality, and change their classes, or choose the heroes based on personality, and change their personalities.

I tend towards the first option just because it cuts away some class-based synergies that otherwise might dominate army builds.

[Flame Gryphon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Well there's two ways to go with it: choose the heroes based on personality, and change their classes, or choose the heroes based on personality, and change their personalities.

I tend towards the first option just because it cuts away some class-based synergies that otherwise might dominate army builds.

IAmBatman; superhero psychologist.

Definitely prefer the former.