The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I’m going to preface this by saying I’m obviously a newbie, so if my advice isn’t helpful, you can totally ignore it. But to me these minis tell the story of three heavy-drinking rambunctious viking bros. If I were designing them, I’d go with a more unique defensive power that represents more of a shrugging off of wounds than them just being tough. I’m thinking something similar to C3G’s Jason.

Oooo...I actually like that a lot.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I've had these guys designed for a while now, but been searching for the right minis to fit the design. Now that I've found the right fits, I'm curious to get some feedback. I feel pretty good with the simplicity of the design and it's powers. These warriors come from a prestigious clan who pride themselves in the mastery of the Great Axe.


Tough is as written and comes from their strong and armored miniatures. The Momentum ability is similar wording to the 10th's Bayonet ability. I wanted to portray a squad of Elites who's sheer momentum and power can change the course of a battle.

I like the minis and I like that you're trying to do something simple here. But I agree with the feedback given so far that the price is too low, Momentum is not different enough from Charging Assault or Bayonet Attack to be interesting, and Tough is a bad fit.


I hope you bring it back around.

[flameslayer93]

These dudes are way better than their classic counterparts, the Tarn Viking Warriors. I’d cut their attack back to 3. If you want them to stay cheap. Along with killing Tough/virtually any defensive power. 4 Def would be fine, since the Tarns are there.

As is, these dudes are too wickedly strong. 3 Def+Tough is a very tough nut to crack. Especially in a draft setting where Special Attackers aren’t always drafted

Love the idea of more Vikings though!!!

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Interesting points. I didn't realize Tough didn't/shouldn't "fit" on a human design? Why is that a theme break?

I think you're right about the power level. I probably ought to up the price a bit.

First Assault is established, so yeah you're probably right. I was trying to come up with something unique for these guys, but that can probably come in a second power if Tough ends up/gets dropped.

As for Stoic, the dictionary definition is "a person who can endure pain or hardship without showing their feelings or complaining". You might be right, but I felt like the theme behind these guys was a Tough, elite group of warriors wielding some big bad axes. I feel like Stoic can fit that theme, but maybe I'm missing the mark there...not sure.

I don't think increasing the price is the answer here. I think the armor suggests a Defense of 3, not 4. You *can* do 4, if you really want, but these guys just don't look that heavily armored. And definitely not Tough, which is a major defensive boon that these minis don't appear to want.

It seems to me that this is (as you said) a design in search of a mini. I think you have a vision for how they'll work on the battlefield, and you are shoehorning in mechanics - Tough, a needlessly ornamented Bayonet - to get that to work, without regard for what the minis and the theme are actually saying. Increasing the price point to justify those shoehorned design ideas does not address its bigger problems. Something like @MrNobody 's excellent suggestion, to give them a little survivability in a thematic way, might help. I would consider pairing that with a Defense of 3, not 4.

As for "stoic," you're overlooking the "without showing emotion" piece. Do these guys look like they fight without showing emotion? I certainly don't think so.

[Sir Heroscape]

Great points! I appreciate it, I think I’ve got a few reworks and will swing back around shortly.

[Sir Heroscape]

Based off of your feedback, I've made some adjustments: Price higher, personality changed to Resolute, changed ability to First Assault since that's what was basically the momentum ability and giving them a unique "defensive" power rather than tough. I think this current design still captures what I was originally looking for in this design, so I'm happy with where it's landed. Any further comments are appreciated before I take to some testing this new version.


EDIT: though, now that I think about it, I think I may play with the idea of Shrug off Pain ALSO activating on disengages. That paired with First Assault could make these guys pretty fun. They could basically run away from 1 target to the next wreaking havoc. hmmmm...

[Astroking112]

Since the last time that I brought Masha Shingai here, I've made some key changes that I think should address many of the concerns with him.



The biggest change to the design is the requirement to have an Order Marker revealed on him in order to benefit from his attack-nerfing aura. While this might not seem to be a huge change initially, it basically forces the player to use him aggressively in order to get any real benefit (unless they feel like wasting 1/3 of their turns, which has proven to be far from effective in my games), and losing initiative when you were relying on his aura can really hurt.

It also adds a lot of decision-making to using Masha, since thanks to Flaming Retribution, you're encouraged to keep any Samurai near him. The choice for which OMs to place on him (1 to activate Awakened Fear as soon as possible or 2/3 to let yourself get some good attacks in with the Samurai squads first?) has proven to be consistently engaging and add a new element to the Samurai builds.

Also of note is that Awakened Fear only affects Squad figures now, which gives the other player far more opportunities to evade the aura (on the other hand, the only Samurai who really benefits from this change is Tomoe Gozen). Unless the other player legitimately only took Goblin Cutters (or a similar 2-attack melee squad) and nothing else, fails every initiative roll, and can't reach Masha to safely kill him without fear of Counter Strike, there are plenty of ways to play around him.

The other change is to his stats. He is now far more of a glass cannon (2 defense with 6 life melts much quicker than 3 defense/5 life, especially if he doesn't get his aura activated in time or is going against heroes or range), with slightly more move to match the Izumi and Tagawa Samurai. His Flaming Retribution also has a slightly higher roll to compensate for the increased life, which doubles as making it slightly less effective for the fellow Samurai.

As always, any feedback is greatly appreciated. I know that I've sought a lot of feedback on this design in particular, so I just wanted to thank everyone for the time that they devote to sharing their thoughts and feelings.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Good changes all around. I think that Shrug Off Pain's wording could be improved a little bit, though:

SHRUG OFF PAIN
When a Warrior of the Great Axe Clan receives 1 or more wounds from a normal attack, ignore 1 wound.

It's basically just adding the automatic shield from Tough (unless they get paralyzed by Me-Burq-Sa or the like), but it feels more unique. I'm still a little concerned about their survivability with that offensive output, but that would come through in testing and it's definitely better at 65 points than 50.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

EDIT: though, now that I think about it, I think I may play with the idea of Shrug off Pain ALSO activating on disengages. That paired with First Assault could make these guys pretty fun. They could basically run away from 1 target to the next wreaking havoc. hmmmm...

I'm not a big fan of this. First Assault should be a risky power that encourages taking the risk of leaving engagement strikes, so making another power negate that risk entirely (unless they're going against Knights of Weston) feels counterintuitive.

If you want to improve their chances of disengaging safely, I would suggest switching them over to Einar like Valguard and the Dreadguls so that they can benefit from Count Raymond's Maneuver 9.

[flameslayer93]

Looks solid Astro!

The figure is great, and I feel like it tells a story. How does he fare with +1 Move from Morgoloth and all the Valkrill goodies that come with it?

Edit: Also, looks solid Sir H!

The minis are great, and I see the theme you are going for. They’ll definately be tricky to test, because of the things they can absolutely shred through are low cost units, but they can obliterate a load of em.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Looks solid Astro!

The figure is great, and I feel like it tells a story. How does he fare with +1 Move from Morgoloth and all the Valkrill goodies that come with it?

I haven't tested him with them just yet, but he would definitely enjoy the +1 move bonus. However, I don't believe it would be his most effective build, on account of how Morgoloth fits primarily with either the Wolves of Badru or Mezzodemon Warmongers, neither of which can really "defend" Masha in the same way that friendly Samurai can.

Thanks to their short range, Mezzos will also struggle far more than most ranged squads to stay out of his aura if you're actively using him, and the Wolves of Badru could honestly benefit from the slightly increased survivability but struggle with staying within both Masha and Morgoloth's auras at the same time. Couple this with an extremely low defense and Masha won't last long enough to pose a huge threat.

He can definitely be used in those contexts, but he demands so many Order Markers and melts quickly enough that I don't anticipate him adding much more to those builds other than variety. That said, the change from 5 to 6 move definitely makes the option more appealing than it was in the past. Wolves, Mezzos, and Skull Demons/Death Knights are on my list of things to test.

[caps]

2 defense actually seems too low for Masha. He is wearing armor.

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How is SHRUG OFF PAIN different from TOUGH in effect?

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

How is SHRUG OFF PAIN different from TOUGH in effect?

It's a bit of a corner case, but it still works against Me-Burq-Sa's Paralyzing Stare and similar effects while Tough does not. I'm not sure that's worth a whole new power that's the same 99% of the time, though.

EDIT: Nope, didn't read it right, other differences as well.