C3G Strategy Article Discussion Thread

[dok]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Thanks for the clarification.

So you are saying whichever team wins initiative the first couple times wins?

That sounds pretty even to me.

You are just dying to reach a particular conclusion here, aren't you?

Yes, if I have Joker and Mad Thinker, and the PM army doesn't have Sage, and I can wreck your OMs before you take a turn half the time, then yes, I can beat you. I was playing what was one of the three or four most broken figures in the game, at least before Sage showed up as a perfect counter to Joker's (and Mad Thinker's) ability to rearrange OMs.

If, on the other hand, I'm playing Avengers or Fantastic Four or X-Men or Green Lanterns or Yellow Lanterns or Frost Giants or Iron Men, and so on, you're pretty screwed.

Originally Posted by quozl

I just found it striking that it happened in all 3 games.

In the Fantastic Four game, the opponent put torch far away from the others to try to avoid it, but it only took a couple string pulls to work him over. I can't speak to the X-man game.

But it doesn't take a big area attack to make this stuff work, anyway. If Thing takes out Invisible Woman, that's a crippling blow by itself, right? If Dragon-Man had killed Mad Thinker and Joker, that kind of sinks the build, right?

[quozl]

Originally Posted by dok

In the Fantastic Four game, the opponent put torch far away from the others to try to avoid it, but it only took a couple string pulls to work him over. I can't speak to the X-man game.

But it doesn't take a big area attack to make this stuff work, anyway. If Thing takes out Invisible Woman, that's a crippling blow by itself, right? If Dragon-Man had killed Mad Thinker and Joker, that kind of sinks the build, right?

That's good to know and I totally agree with you. I just want to collect good data right now.

Please post any more playtests here too!

[weebaer]

I also played the exact same Fan 4 team vs the exact same PM team in the same tournament. I was EXTREMELY careful to make sure HT was almost never in clear sight of PM. I wuold have lost miserably if the glyph of team-up didnt save me by allowing me to take back to back turns with a full fledged Clobbering Time Thing. 2 attacks of 11 for glyph of team up, 2 attacks of 11 for Mr. Fan activation. Then I eliminated my opponent's next OM and did the same thing killing 5 full life figs of my opponent. (Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, War Machine, Shadowcat, and Namor.) So the glyph of team-up allowed me to roll 88 dice in 2 OMs for the win. Otherwise I was getting decimated with ZERO String pulls on HT. (Mr fantastic and SS were SP'd to kill Invisible woman very fast, and SS almost killed Mr. Fan.)

Originally Posted by Tornado

Thanks for the clarification.

So you are saying whichever team wins initiative the first couple times wins?

That sounds pretty even to me.

I just counted up the amount of effective OMs I had vs. dok's
I had successfully used 19 OMs that game, 20 were given to Shadowcat.
dok used 37 effective OMs and lost 2 OMs due to deaths.

Teams were not quite even..even with the craziness of Mad Thinker+Joker

[dok]

I also had Mad Thinker sitting on the glyph of Team-Up for a large portion of that game, which allowed me to take double turns with Dragon-Man or Red Tornado. A lot of things were going for me that game. And in fairness, it did end up pretty close at the end.

Man, what an introduction to C3G that game was...

[weebaer]

Originally Posted by dok

I also had Mad Thinker sitting on the glyph of Team-Up for a large portion of that game, which allowed me to take double turns with Dragon-Man or Red Tornado. A lot of things were going for me that game. And in fairness, it did end up pretty close at the end.

Man, what an introduction to C3G that game was...

Seriously. The first 3 rounds of that game I almost started watching TV with all those OMs on Shadowcat lol.

[IAmBatman]

When posting tests - can you guys please include information in each test as to which figures are left at the end of the test and how many life they have left? This information on margin of win can go along way towards analyzing a series of results. Thanks.

Also, if you guys can agree on a "broken" 1,000 point army including Puppet Master for me to try out, I'll be happy to run it. It seems there's some dispute on my initial ideas, so I'll wait for you guys to settle on one for me to try.

[dok]

Maybe this should be a different thread from the Strategy Article discussions?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

When posting tests - can you guys please include information in each test as to which figures are left at the end of the test and how many life they have left? This information on margin of win can go along way towards analyzing a series of results. Thanks.

In our crazy game, weebaer had Namor, Shadowcat, and Martian Manhunter left at the end, each with one life.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Also, if you guys can agree on a "broken" 1,000 point army including Puppet Master for me to try out, I'll be happy to run it. It seems there's some dispute on my initial ideas, so I'll wait for you guys to settle on one for me to try.

I'll give you several flavors to pick from. I'm not sure why we should stick to 1000 exactly, but anyway.

Option 1, the full weebaer, except that Spider-Girl is not as good as he thinks so I'm sticking with Mastermind and finding something else to do on the end.

140 Puppet Master
190 Sage
90 Mastermind
60 Mystery Legionnaire
130 Braniac 5
270 War Machine
120... I'll go with Angel and filler. Alternatively, upgrade the Legionnaire to Lightning Lad. Or go with Vertigo instead of Angel.

Strategy: put Mastermind at a spot with good sightlines, with everyone else clumped around. Warmachine in the front.

Braniac/Sage gives +6 to initiative, +4 to Warmachine's roll pre-OM1, +3 to PM/Warmachine's roll on OM1, +2 on OM2 and OM3.

Option 2: Dropping the Sage/Braniac/Legionnaire combo because 380 is a lot of points for a d20 bonus at 1000 points. Going with less d20-based defensive figures.

140 Puppet Master
90 Mastermind
90 Angel
310 Bizarro
190 Joker
180 Jocasta

Same strategy, basically. Joker takes the X each round.

Option 3: Switching from Mastermind to Beat Cops as the way to keep PM from needing to rely on RMC.

140 Puppet Master
310 Bizarro
90 Angel
130 Beat Cops x2
210 Metiorite
120... Weather Wizard and filler?

I really want 3 squads, and I'd be fine with Doctor Light instead of Metiorite, but the numbers don't really add up how I'd like. At least Metiorite can go out in front of the pod, 3 spaces behind Bizarro, and make it harder for the pod to get sniped at.

I think the middle option (2) is the best, mainly because the points add up the nicest.

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by dok

You are just dying to reach a particular conclusion here, aren't you?

I just want to make sure we are basing our conclusions on legitimate playtests. I do not care what the end result is, I just want to make sure we are going about it the right way.
When I see a test start with a completely avoidable 11 wound attack, I get concerned.

Also be sure to mention Glyphs used in any tests.
The Team-Up Glyph is a bit much for my tastes and I never use it.
If that Glyph is what kept you in the game, that is important to know, and I have to agree that is a huge factor that puts marks in the broken column.
Just going by the current results, I have to say PM is strong but not broken. I am looking forward to Bats' test.

Nice PM builds.

[weebaer]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I just want to make sure we are basing our conclusions on legitimate playtests. I do not care what the end result is, I just want to make sure we are going about it the right way.
When I see a test start with a completely avoidable 11 wound attack, I get concerned.

Also be sure to mention Glyphs used in any tests.
The Team-Up Glyph is a bit much for my tastes and I never use it.
If that Glyph is what kept you in the game, that is important to know, and I have to agree that is a huge factor that puts marks in the broken column.
Just going by the current results, I have to say PM is strong but not broken. I am looking forward to Bats' test.

Nice PM builds.

The Games I showed were not official playtests. They were tournament games. Sorry I didnt make that clear. I just threw something together quickly so quozl could take a quick look and consider re-evaluating PM's powers and price.

[Tornado]

Again, I appreciate the help but regardless if they are official or not, it is important that they are legit or what purpose do they serve?.

Just by what you posted PM sounds over powered. However after looking deeper we find out OMs were improperly removed and opponent's figures were set to PM's advantage.
This makes it harder to determine what PMs cost should be.

I can run a hundred playtests but if I play the figures wrong, what have I learned?

I just want to make sure everyone is drawing conclusions on solid test results.

You are banging the 'broken' drum pretty hard and all I am asking for is proof.

So far it looks like PM is strong if has the right help, at a high point value, which is a little different from an earlier statement that you can just throw him into any strong build and be INSANE.

I would need to see more legit tests to convince me otherwise. Not that it really matters since I have absolutely no say in the matter.

[quozl]

A simpler way to that is just let us know all the circumstances so we can evaluate it properly.

Again, thank you for the tests. We'd like more if you (or anyone else) have them or would like to run some more.

[weebaer]

1

I can run a hundred playtests but if I play the figures wrong, what have I learned?

I kinda felt like this too when I saw PM playtested in several 1v1 settings .

No I totally understand your point. I have played with/ against PM probably 20 times. (it would be so nice for me to just download all those memories to you )

I am saying there is no question ever if all I wanted to do was win regardless of how much fun my opponent has I would always choose PM if I had a solid army.

I will have lots of free time in a couple of weeks (my wife is headed to her parents with the kids for a week while I have to work...sigh) and we can run a few teams against eachother.

We can construct several 1200 point PM teams, and run them against a lot of classic teams (insane faction, Xmen, Fan 4, GL's, Avengers, Agents, brotherhood of evil mutants, justice league etc.)

This will help both of us see if I am over-reacting, or if I am on the money.

Originally Posted by dok

except that Spider-Girl is not as good as he thinks

Im going to run Spider-Girl next SLH and be all up in your bizzznasss