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  #205  
Old November 22nd, 2019, 07:11 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Hmm. Yeah, I'm definitely open to the "before or after moving" Blink and Evasive 2/3.
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  #206  
Old November 24th, 2019, 08:55 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Personally I would prefer for SHIFT to only be usable before moving, instead of before or after. However, I also think that the powers work together and interact mechanically quite well. Specifically, using SHIFT before movement will allow the Velnesh experiments to disengage from enemies that they have previously blinked to. Because of how Blink works, they'll often find themselves engaged with enemy figures that they might not necessarily want to attack, and in this way SHIFT complements BLINK quite well.
I agree with this, the powers compliment each other. Shift being only before (or after) moving was my preferred version, but got changed. Going back to that would simplify the timing somewhat. "They teleport when shot at, they teleport before moving". "They teleport a lot" doesn't bother me since that's the theme behind the unit. There was also mention of this version of Blink:


BLINK
When a Velnesh Alpha is targeted for a normal attack by an opponent's non-adjacent* figure, you may immediately move that Velnesh Alpha with Shift.


In some cases you'll be able to dodge completely behind something or out of range and avoid the shot altogether, and in others you won't have anywhere useful to go. But more importantly it helps ties the two powers together.

At any rate, I think the two power card here is better than either one by itself. Blink alone is just bad Thorian Speed. Shift alone is a little more interesting, but we're also terrain-limited in this set which hinders it somewhat.

*Required to make this version not abusive vs melee, and could probably be in the current version as well to again simplify the amount of teleports.

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  #207  
Old November 24th, 2019, 11:14 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
At any rate, I think the two power card here is better than either one by itself. Blink alone is just bad Thorian Speed. Shift alone is a little more interesting, but we're also terrain-limited in this set which hinders it somewhat.
And in my opinion, Shift alone is just bad Stealth Flying. But put those things together and you have a very thematic, unique design. I love it.
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  #208  
Old November 24th, 2019, 04:10 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

I could go with the "may move with Shift" Blink.
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  #209  
Old November 24th, 2019, 04:25 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Shift being only before (or after) moving was my preferred version, but got changed. Going back to that would simplify the timing somewhat. "They teleport when shot at, they teleport before moving". "They teleport a lot" doesn't bother me since that's the theme behind the unit.
I think that allowing the before or after movement distinguishes them from some designs like the Ninjas of the Northern Wind. If Shift only works before moving, then it essentially becomes a limited form of Disengage in most situations, but letting it activate after movement as well gives them a lot more options, such as teleporting past a screen, jumping up towers, or teleporting through walls.

If we're looking at making Shift the full focus of the design, then I think that keeping the flexibility of using it before or after movement is important. The choice on its own doesn't add too much complexity, but it adds a lot to the gameplay, and it feels more thematic that these sci-fi aliens can jump between dimensions with more control.

Quote:
BLINK
When a Velnesh Alpha is targeted for a normal attack by an opponent's non-adjacent* figure, you may immediately move that Velnesh Alpha with Shift. A Velnesh Alpha cannot use Blink more than once per turn.
I'm still fine with this on principle, but I think that it still kind of runs into the same problem of being confusing for brand new players to get their head around. Obviously it's not nearly as bad as having two distinct forms of teleportation, so I hope that this would be more manageable. This does make the design harder to use, requiring players to either hide adjacent to walls or count out spaces and ranges in order to use the power well.

I added some placeholder text to remind us that this power would have to be limited to once per turn, since they otherwise just keep getting retargeted and teleporting away until they're out of range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
At any rate, I think the two power card here is better than either one by itself. Blink alone is just bad Thorian Speed. Shift alone is a little more interesting, but we're also terrain-limited in this set which hinders it somewhat.
I agree that just Shift on its own has some issues, and just Blink on its own feels like it will be pretty underwhelming for most newer players (given that it doesn't ignore the attack afterward). We don't necessarily need to have both on the same design, though.

If we want to keep this direction, then I think that the revised Blink to just let them Shift when targeted is workable, or we could look at a gameplay style redesign if we want more substantial changes. Any other potential second powers need to be considered with what purpose and role these guys are supposed to serve, so I'd like to discuss that first if we're going down that route.
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  #210  
Old November 24th, 2019, 10:07 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

I think we could go with what we have, first - find some newer players or players that aren’t as versed in the game, and run it past them.
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  #211  
Old November 24th, 2019, 10:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I think we could go with what we have, first - find some newer players or players that arent as versed in the game, and run it past them.
I doubt running it by people will matter. They're easy enough to understand when you're trying to understand them, especially individually.
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  #212  
Old November 24th, 2019, 10:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

I suppose that's true.

I'm torn between keeping what we have, and goign with Shift + Evasive.
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  #213  
Old November 24th, 2019, 11:58 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

If we do go for pairing down to just Shift for teleportation, Id rather have Shift + Stealth Dodge as opposed to Evasive.

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  #214  
Old December 1st, 2019, 01:45 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

I'm inclined to agree with All Your Pie. Stealth Dodge feels a bit nicer than Evasive here if we want to go that route.

I think that if we want to keep this current direction, we should go with the proposed version of Blink above that simply lets them use Shift once when they are targeted. Scytale's concern still stands, but it's at least a little easier to get the hang of.

I'm also good with going down to a one-teleporting power design, but I think that we should settle on their playstyle with this kind of a change. Shift seems to have the most traction to keep of the two currently. Any other thoughts on that front?
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  #215  
Old December 2nd, 2019, 10:24 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

So do we want to move back to Design to change Blink to a Shift-trigger (or something else), or just change it up and keep moving?

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  #216  
Old December 3rd, 2019, 10:04 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Velnesh Alphas (Leyline Phantoms) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
So do we want to move back to Design to change Blink to a Shift-trigger (or something else), or just change it up and keep moving?
I could see us continuing forward with Blink being a ranged Shift trigger, but if we're brainstorming a bigger change then I think that moving back to Design would be prudent.

Personally, I lean more towards the latter option because I don't think that the ranged Shift trigger fully addresses Scytale's points, but I could get behind trying out this direction first if that's what we're feeling.
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