Green & Copper Wyrmlings - Vote & Collaborate

[killercactus]

Honestly, my favorite version of the GW was the Uncommon Hero with 3 life, 4/4, 65 points, and my FC. Nobody liked it because it isn't a common hero like the other wyrmlings, but I always thought Charos' defining characteristic was that he was a tank - not really Counterstrike.

[caps]

Originally Posted by killercactus

Honestly, my favorite version of the GW was the Uncommon Hero with 3 life, 4/4, 65 points, and my FC. Nobody liked it because it isn't a common hero like the other wyrmlings, but I always thought Charos' defining characteristic was that he was a tank - not really Counterstrike.

I could see something like that as a young dragon--like a step below Othkurik--but not as a Wyrmling.

[Arch-vile]

I could see it working with a different sculpt. The current one is too small imo.

[lefton4ya]

3D Green & Copper Wyrmlings are hopefully coming. Let us bring back this discussion.

[Iron Clubber]

How did the 3/5 Wyrmling play? I would have thought 5 was too high.

The first one for both Green and Copper are better imo. They stick with the theme and are simple, just like the other Wyrmlings.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

3D Green & Copper Wyrmlings are hopefully coming. Let us bring back this discussion.

There are some very easy to 3d print sculpts of wyrmlings of all colors out there on thingiverse right now. These models are so small it would be super easy to print them. Not sure if this is an SOV/C3V type of project, if so Ill move along. Just thought Id throw that info out there.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Iron Clubber

How did the 3/5 Wyrmling play? I would have thought 5 was too high.

The first one for both Green and Copper are better imo. They stick with the theme and are simple, just like the other Wyrmlings.

5 was too high, mainly because they work with the 4th Mass, and giving the 4th a Valiant 5 defense wall with Counterstrike is really powerful.

Originally Posted by TREX

There are some very easy to 3d print sculpts of wyrmlings of all colors out there on thingiverse right now. These models are so small it would be super easy to print them. Not sure if this is an SOV/C3V type of project, if so Ill move along. Just thought Id throw that info out there.

I stated elsewhere I was going to model Wyrmlings to be 3D printed, so that we could finish off the last 2 Classic Scape Dragons. I also want to give Brimstone a Wyrmling variant. I'm assuming that this is why Lefton4ya revived this thread.

Thingiverse is a great resource, and in the future it would cool if we could tap into that. The advantage to having a member of the community make the model, is that the model is made specifically for the bigger Dragon it is representing, and permission can be given for the Heroscape community to "Claim" it in a way, so there's no potential legal issues if someone doesn't want us using their model for something like the C3V/SoV.

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None of the Green Wyrmlings in this thread have the stats that I think a baby Charos should have, though the Copper Wyrmlings are closer to where I think a baby Mimring should be.

Lets look at the official wyrmling stats in comparison to their parents:
Blue 4A/3D | Quahon 6A/3D
Red 3A/3D | Zelrig 4A/4D
White 3A/4D | Nilfheim 6A/4D
Black 3A/3D | Braxas 5A/3D

Now lets look at the dragon's that don't have a Wyrmling (except Moltenclaw and Othkurik)
Charos 5A/5D
Mimring 4A/4D
Brimstone 4A/4D

There are a few things that the Wyrmlings always have in comparison to their parents. There stats are worse. The attack is always at least 1 lower than their parent's, and sometimes as much as 3 less. The defense is either the same, or worse. They have a less powerful version of their parent's signature attack. They always have the same personality. They also have either the same or less move.

When designing a new Wyrmling, it needs to be priced around the same as the existing Wyrmlings. It's price needs to reflect how powerful it is. It's stats need to be a logical step behind the parent's. It's signature ability should weaker than it's parent's. And It should have Wyrmling Bonding.

So with that in mind, I think a Green Wyrmling should have 3 or less attack, and less than 5 defense. Even if following the patterns made with the other Wyrmlings, would allow the Green Wyrmling to keep 5 defense from their father, 5 defense is so much better than any other Wyrmling, and we need to keep the price in the same ball park. Then there's the issue with Valiant. The Green Wyrmling should keep the personality of Charos, and that means that the Green Wyrmling has to be balanced around being in a 4th mass army.

With all of this taken into account, my Green Wyrmling would have either 2attack/4Defense, or 3attack/3Defense. Both of them would be 35 points, with 5 move, and they would have a counterstrike that deals 1 wound if you roll any excess shields. I will be testing to see if this is broken with 4th mass, or not, and I'll go with whichever is the least broken in a 4th mass army, which will probably be the 3/3 one.

All of the Green Wyrmling designs in this thread (except maybe the one that got eaten by photobucket) have better stats than what I think a Green Wyrmling should have. One of them even has better move than Charos, with 4/4 stats, all for just 30 points.

I think an issue that a lot of people probably had, is that Izumi samurai exist to be compared to. They are a squad of 3, with 5 defense, and normal Counterstrike. Everyone is aware of this, because they came in the base master set that almost every scape player received as their first set. If the Izumi can be 20 points a figure with 2 attack 5 defense, why can't the Green Wyrmling at 30-35 points, and with a Fledgling Counter Strike have better overall stats? The Izumi are only B tier after all, isn't that what the SoV wants? Why can't the Green Wyrmling be better than a single Izumi Samurai? Well Valiant, and bonding with range are the big game changers here. If the Izumi could be moved in the same turn as a squad of Samurai Archers, they would be at least a tier better. If the Izumi were Valiant, they would be significantly more Valuable in a 4th Mass army than literally any other army, and being able to fit into that army would boost their tier to at least A-.

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Then there's the Copper Wyrmling. The Super Bouge design in here is basically what I would do. The existing Wyrmlings are all limited to affecting only 1 or 2 figures with their specials, but Mimring is the only Dragon that can affect more than 3 figures without an explosion attack, so he Copper Wyrmling should reflect that. I would limit the range of the Fledgling Fireline to 4 or 5 spaces in a line with 2 attack dice. 6 feels like it is a little too far to me, just because that would allow this Wyrmling to affect 4 more figures than any other, even if it's relatively easy to prevent that when playing against them. 3 attack is just too good for a Wyrmling special attack that effects multiple targets. I'll probably start with 4 range and see how it plays. Next is stats, and if you remember what I said earlier you'll know that this means the Copper Wyrmling might get to have the worst Normal attack of any of them. Mimring has the lowest attack stats of any Dragon, tied with Brimstone and Othkurik, and Zelrig at 4 attack. The Copper Wyrmling will then have either 2 or 3 attack, and match their parent for 3 defense. My vision keeps the 6 move from Mimring, and prices them at 30 points initially.

The Value of the Copper Wyrmling will come from being able to hit 3 or more targets, which is better than any other Wyrmling, but for mimring, this can be hard to consistently get lined up, if your opponent knows what they are doing, I'm going to start at 30 points. Something that's important to keep in mind is that unlike Mimring, the Wyrmlings are common, and thus expendable. This means that rushing Copper Wyrmlings into a startzone to Fire Line as many things as possible, is much for viable for them. Depending on how effective this is, I might bump them to 35 points.

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Now onto Brimstone's baby, the Volcanic Wyrmling.

Brimstone is a little bit tricky, because the nature of the signature ability is not something that can be translated to a common figure. Markers can't be used in the same way on a common card. That means that I have to set the attack of Fledgling Heat Blast, and it can't be dynamic like Brimstone's is. So to keep Fledgling Heat blast from being too potentially powerful, I'm going to limit it to 1 attack die. Now theirs the matter of range. One interesting thing about the Fledgling Specials, is that some of them have the same range as their parent's. With only 1 attack dice, is an area of effect blast range of 1, going to make the Volcanic Wyrmling too weak? Should I keep it at the range of Brimstone? No that would probably be too strong. Next there's the matter of stats. Brimstone is a 4/4, and following the predicent set by the existing Wyrmlings, that means the Volcanic Wyrmling is going to be reduced to 3 attack. We could leave the Defense at 4, but Brimstone is one of the weaker dragons, and I don't think his baby version should get better defense than most of the other Wyrmlings, so I'm going with 3 defense. With this we're left with Fledgling Heat Blast affecting all adjacent figures, for 1 attack die, 3 normal attack, and 3 defense. I'll be leaving the 6 move so that you can plop them into a good position easier. That's not too bad if you can plop the Wyrmling right in the middle of 3 - 6 figures, but it's not very reliable, and you'll want the other Wyrmlings most of the time. For this reason I consider pricing the Volcanic Wyrmling at 25 points, but I'm going to initially start with 30.

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[lefton4ya]

@Leaf_It thanks for your comments. Note that in practice (I have only played a few times and its been awhile) a 3/3 Green Wyrmling is only worth 20-25 points and a 4/4 is worth 30 (maybe 35 if it has bonding and is paired with 4th mass). Your comparison to Izumi is good, but note that those are 3 figures and are a B at best at 20 points a figure. So then by definition a 2/5 Green Wyrmling is worth less than or at most 20 points as it can only have 2 attacks a turn, with a an advantage you can have reinforcements.

I'm probably the only one that would want a Green Wyrmling without Wyrmling Bonding, as I think it would negate the super-advantage with 4th Mass, and we could have them 30 points and they be good with all units.

On another note, I'd love to see a "Mother Dragon" custom that can lay eggs, basically resurrecting Wyrmlings, and maybe have movement bonding or some kind of defensive boost for Wyrmlings. Maybe for the "Nest" power put markers on the board or card and after a round they hatch, but eggs could be destroyed either on the board or by wounding the dragon (depending if the markers are on board or card). Just a rough idea, but probably should take the discussion to another thread.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Iron Clubber

How did the 3/5 Wyrmling play? I would have thought 5 was too high.

The first one for both Green and Copper are better imo. They stick with the theme and are simple, just like the other Wyrmlings.

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

@Leaf_It thanks for your comments. Note that in practice (I have only played a few times and its been awhile) a 3/3 Green Wyrmling is only worth 20-25 points and a 4/4 is worth 30 (maybe 35 if it has bonding and is paired with 4th mass). Your comparison to Izumi is good, but note that those are 3 figures and are a B at best at 20 points a figure. So then by definition a 2/5 Green Wyrmling is worth less than or at most 20 points as it can only have 2 attacks a turn, with a an advantage you can have reinforcements.

I'm probably the only one that would want a Green Wyrmling without Wyrmling Bonding, as I think it would negate the super-advantage with 4th Mass, and we could have them 30 points and they be good with all units.

On another note, I'd love to see a "Mother Dragon" custom that can lay eggs, basically resurrecting Wyrmlings, and maybe have movement bonding or some kind of defensive boost for Wyrmlings. Maybe for the "Nest" power put markers on the board or card and after a round they hatch, but eggs could be destroyed either on the board or by wounding the dragon (depending if the markers are on board or card). Just a rough idea, but probably should take the discussion to another thread.

Do you think that the White Wyrmling is priced correctly at 30 points with 3/4 stats, and a two target special? I think the white should be 35 personally. Better stats than the Black and the Red, and White gets to target two figures instead of 1. Blue is about the same as white, the Special is easier to avoid, since it's limited to 4 range, and the second target has to be within 3 spaces of the first. While 4 attack is good, the extra range, defense, and move, make up for it on the White. Black is crazy good against certain specific units,(Krav, PKs, Beakfaces, anything with auto shields) because it's a 50% chance auto wound, but outside of those match ups, White is the best Wyrmling.

Lets look at the average stats of the designs in here. It sits at 4 attack, and 4 defense. A 4/4 Green Wyrmling would be the best Wyrmling, having the same normal attack of the Blue, with the defense of the White, and Counter Strike to really sell it. 4/4 Green would need to be priced at 40-45 point at least, just within the Wyrmling bonding loop. The 4 normal attack, 5 from height, which is relatively easy to get with Flying, would be the best attack the Wyrmlings would have. The only reason Blue isn't this good (other than no Counter Strike) is because they only have 3 defense, but their 4 attack is still very useful against anything with higher defense. With the 4th mass, the 4/4 Green would be even better, probably needing to be priced at 50-60 points if they had their bonding power, or just 45-50 without it, and then they'd be too overpriced in their own Wyrmling army.

The Izumi are 20 per figure, because they don't have a decent melee attack, and they don't bond. The reason they aren't better is because their turns aren't going to kill anything, unless you're fighting Vypers, or cutters. If you could move them on the same turn as something with offensive potential, especially ranged, they would be B+ or better easily. If you could move even 1 Izumi on the same turn as a Samurai archer, their utility would be much better. They aren't B for their their attack, but solely for their ability to hold positions. They're even better if your opponent is 2-3 attack melee armies, where they can really punish anything that doesn't have a special attack.

The Green Wyrmling will be bonding (either with their own Wyrmling bonding, or by that of another Wyrmling) with a ranged special attacker Wyrming. Their role will be tanks to hold a position, because their offensive capabilities will never be as good as the other Wyrmlings, simply because they are melee. Counter Strike means they will occasionally kill on the other players turn, making your next turn better. They don't even need to have an attack, because attacking isn't their role. The 2/4 is the one that I would want to see the most, though 3/3 is probably a bit more representative of Charos with the balanced stats. Just having a form of Counter Strike will make them the best glyph holders, and front line defenders because people avoid attacking things that have Counter Strike with anything melee. That holds true even at 3/3. The biggest thing to dissuade 4th mass players will be, low attack. The Green will be used in 4th mass armies no matter what, as long as it has Counter Strike, and costs less than 50 points, with or without Wyrmling Bonding.

A mother Dragon would be pretty neat.

[TREX]

@Leaf_It , if the model in question on thingiverse has all the needed requirements and is free to use it shouldnt be any kind of problem for the community to use. The only problem that could come up is if the model is being sold to other scapers for monetary gain when all the permission boxes are left unchecked. That info per model is easily identified on the down load page of each file. As long as those parameters are checked I dont see the problem. The fan side of heroscape projects is not a business that makes money so that shouldnt have any problems when making a claim to use the figure. I would imagine it would get them more hits on their model when you credit the mini used information in the "books of" OP. Anyway. Carry on with the politics of the thread, the wyrmlings of the missing colored dragons is a hole that Im surprised hadnt been filled yet. Looks like a fun addition.

[lefton4ya]

One other idea some people had floated as a baby Charos is make an Uncommon Hero. 4 attack, 4 defense, 4? life, counterstrike or fledgling counter strike, and maybe like 70 points. This would also be a Wyrmling class, but not have Wyrmling Bonding (still bonds with other Wyrmlings). You could do similar for ones made as baby Mimring, Brimstone or other dragons.

@Leaf_It . According to Unit Debate #55 -- The Wyrmlings - white is only slightly above Blue. According to dok, OrcElfArmyOne, Jexix, and Cleon, Red & Black are both B+, White is B, Blue is B-. I think many competitive players would agree that if White was 25 and Blue was 30 then they would fall somewhere between Red and Black in play-ability, or alternatively if Red and Black were both 35 then they would be the same playability as White and Blue are now. There is absolutely no justification for White being worth 35 unless you want to nerf it to a C level.

See this quote of a poll results and especially see the last line was voted overwhelmingly by people (albeit 5 years ago).

Originally Posted by dok

As promised. Some people took it as "suggest 1 card", and other took it as "check off anything acceptable to you", but anyway, you can see the general trends.

29 reponses.

Do you feel that fledgling counterstrike should have a nerf designed to reduce synergy with Raelin?
No.  Raelin with GWs is no worse than Raelin with TSAs/WoA.	24	56%
Yes, counterstrike only on whiffs	5	12%
Yes, counterstrike only on 1 or fewer skull attacks	2	5%
Yes, counterstrike only when at least as many dice show shields as do not	3	7%
Yes, counterstrike only works when rolling a certain number of defense dice	2	5%
Yes, counterstrike only works if you get exactly 1 extra shield	5	12%
Other	2	5%


Aside from the changes above, what differences (if any) would you like as compared to Charos's counterstrike?
No change is needed aside from my suggestion from the question above	4	8%
Maximum of 1 wound	24	46%
Does not work on large figures	8	15%
Does not work on huge figures	8	15%
Situational limitations (only on figures that are engaged at the start of the turn, etc)	3	6%
d20 roll to reduce counterstrike percentage	3	6%
Other	2	4%


What is your preferred statline for GWs?
4 attack, 4 defense	22	76%
3 attack, 5 defense	2	7%
3 attack, 4 defense	2	7%
4 attack, 3 defense	1	3%
3 attack, 3 defense	2	7%


What other changes, if any, would you like to see from the standard wyrmling formula?
World is Icaria instead of Eberron	10	63%
No wyrmling bonding on the card	1	6%
Uncommon Hero instead of common	1	6%
Other	4	25%

So... nothing shocking here. I have to admit I've been intrigued by some of the suggestions lately. A 4 Move, 4 Attack, 5 Defense, Max 1 wound Counterstrike on Whiffs only, ~40 point wyrm does sound very distinctive and Charos-y.

That said, 5M/4A/4D, 35 points, seems to be the obvious starting point.

[Leaf_It]

Hmm... Those players are definitely more experienced than me. From my own experience, the White has been the best over all. The Black in the right match up is way better, just because it ignores all defensive abilities since it's not considered a special attack. The red is better against commons, especially higher defense ones. The White has had the best consistency for me though, so I considered it the best. The Blue was the worst, but only because of it's price. It's offense is better than the White most of the time, the white just lasts longer because of the higher defense. I can't ignore those rankings though. I don't agree than the White would drop to C tier though. It's performance is slightly better than blue, because it lasts a bit longer, and I think that they would be the same tier, if they were the same price. 1 more range, move, and defense aren't just useless by comparison. Maybe I'm pushing the wrong way though, and the Blue should be 30. Oh well, it's not something that can change, and this kind of off topic anyway.

An uncommon Wyrmling with 4 life, would not fit thematically, at least in my opinion, at the size of the rest of the wyrmlings. It would need to be somewhere between the current wyrmling's size, and Othkurik's size. It's not a direction I would want to go.

What I think is kind of interesting though, is the line before the last in that poll.

4 Move, 4 Attack, 5 Defense, Max 1 wound Counterstrike on Whiffs only.

If the Green is slow, and the counter strike is only on blank attack rolls, that could be the right direction. I think that 4/5 is too good though. 4/4 at 5 move is too good, but at 4 move, and with only counter striking on blanks, that might be enough...

That said, 5M/4A/4D, 35 points, seems to be the obvious starting point.

I think you'll probably be able to tell what my opinion is of these stats. 5m 4a 4d is too good, though a blank only Counter Strike helps. I think my starting point will be 4M/4A/4D/35 points. And I'll test that with 4th mass and see if it feels too good.